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Les pêcheurs de perles

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Bizet, the composer of Carmen, led an erratic professional life during which he rarely tasted success before his masterpiece was performed in 1875 – and then he died. In the early 1860s he had great difficulty getting anything performed; Les pêcheurs was a rare breakthrough when it was staged in 1863. It wasn't much of a success, and Bizet got panned by the critics for his grandstanding at the opening night. A century-and-a-half later, the work is much esteemed. If for nothing else, people know it for the "Pearl Fishers Duet", which in the 1980s topped the list in a Guardian poll of the public's "best tunes". Opera snobs like me know there is much better music to be had than that. Anyway, the article needs looking over, and I'd be grateful for your comments. Brianboulton (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

Very nicely done. You can imagine what music I have going through my head. I went when it was given in Washington about three years ago ... very well done. To business:

Lede

"whose own dilemma is the conflict between secular love and her sacred oath as a priestess." "Own" is perhaps surplusage but perhaps better would be "who must choose between secular love and her sacred oath as a priestess".

I want to emphasise that all three people in the triangle have their particular problems; those of the two men are linked, those of Leila are distinct. I think your suggested wording would tend to weaken this. I'll think about "own", though. Brianboulton (talk) 00:02, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Although the work" surplus of "although"s in that sentence.

Background

"and a performance at the" specify that the performance was to be the prize winning work.
"Back in Paris," Suggest strike "Back".
" in the city" Omit.
"time to time it produced " The tenses in this sentence puzzle me. They may be correct, but you might want to look at it again.
Some early mention of the modern name of Ceylon seems appropriate.

Synopsis

Clarification as to whether the pyre is to burn them alive or to receive the dead bodies. (In the version I saw, Nourabad rather loudly shot Zurga as the curtain fell, btw).

The act three chorus gives an impression that the flames will be the means of death rather than of cremation after death. This is probably a matter for individual productions to decide, though. Brianboulton (talk) 00:02, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will resume tomorrow and hopefully complete.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:02, 29 November 2011 (UTC) Continuing on:[reply]

Writing and compositional history:

Cormon was linked just before the plot. Up to you, just pointing it out.
" later that, had they been aware of Bizet's quality as a composer, they would have tried harder." Turnabout being fair play, this sentence would be just fine without the commas.
"Carré burn the libretto, which facetious remark" I would break the sentence on that comma, as it is too long (not the comma).

Perfromance history

"to 30th" I would put a "the" in there.
" in May 1889 the Princess of Wales". I would name her, on balance.

I know she was called Alexandra, but she is not named in the sources. So what do I do? Brianboulton (talk) 00:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would link the newspaper names.
"In London after the Second World War, although the opera was shunned by Covent Garden, the Sadler's Wells company presented it in March 1954" A bit awkward. Why not call it London's Covent Garden and at lease eliminate one clause?
Given that you are talking about an English-language production just before, it may be well to clarify what language the WNO used.

Source doesn't say, and there's no recording. I'm pretty sure it would have been in French, but I don't know.

"Coleman's Sadler's Wells" While one is of course part of a proper name, I would still avoid having consecutive words with possessives.
"James C Whitson" C or C. ?

Music

" When the voice enters" I would say "When her voice enters".

Editions

"nouvelle edition" Should this be italicised?

In the source it's in quotes, not italics, with an accented "e" which I've noe added. Brianboulton (talk) 00:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

" This process was further aided" Uncertain what "further" adds.

The discovery of the conducting score was a further step towards authenticity. Brianboulton (talk) 00:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recordings

"(Victor Talking Machine Company, New Jersey) " Surely that is, as the kids say TMI (too much information)
"Brad Cohen's English language highlights, " This is awkward indeed. However, I have no improvement except possibly making it "English-language".

That is all I have. Well done as usual.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:54, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. Mostly fixed, a few I want to think about a bit more. Brianboulton (talk) 00:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

A very small collection of quibbles:

Background
- "set on the island of Sri Lanka, then known as Ceylon" – an odd way of putting it, surely? Carré and Cormon set it on the island of Ceylon, now known as Sri Lanka. (Being French, they thought Ceylon was spelled with an "a", but we waive that point.)
Writing and compositional history
- "Because he only received Carvalho's commission in April" – you're bound to get some clever-clogs at FAC objecting that this doesn't say what it means (though in truth it is perfectly unambiguous). Better, perhaps, to play for safety and write "Because he did not receive Carvalho's commission until April…"
Early revivals
- "at the city's Gaîté Theatre" – you have established earlier in the sentence that we're in Paris, and "the city's" could be trimmed to a simple "the", which flows better, I think.
- "However, the Met's first complete staging" – is the "however" wanted here?
Widening repertory – I'm not sure I quite get the point you are making by this header
- "London's Covent Garden" – rather a tabloid construction, me judice (and this is its second appearance – it popped up under Early Revivals, but I bit the bullet the first time round.)
- "Despite its run being a sell-out" – tiresome old pedants (e.g. me) would insist that you need a gerund here ("Despite its run's being a sell-out); you can thwart t.o.ps. by saying "Although its run was a sell-out…"
Music
- "critic John W Klein" – two points here. First, the "premier David Cameron" construction is tabloid (and probably transatlantic, too) and is deprecated by all style guides known to me including those of The Guardian and The Economist. Secondly, you need to decide whether Mr Klein is entitled to a full stop after his middle initial, Mr Whitson having qualified for one in the previous paragraph. Blitz the lot, I say, but de gustibus as long as you're consistent.
Editions
- "his widow Mme Geneviève Bizet" – unexpectedly ceremonious; you could drop the "Mme" and possibly even the "Bizet".
Recordings
- The definite article for "The Gramophone" needs checking. From memory it was there until circa 1975, dropped until the early 1990s, restored briefly under James Jolly, and dropped again in the mid 1990s. At all events, I'd check refs 57, 61 and 62 if I were you. And the blue link to the magazine at ref 61 should be moved up to ref 54.
Sources
- Penguin Guide – March was the sole editor; the other two joined him as reviewers (and his missus wrote the invaluable synopses).

That's my lot. I really enjoyed the article, which does a minor work more than justice. I admire the way you fearlessly use technical terms such as minor third and tonic pedal (no dumbing-down in this article), and you explain the ins and outs of the different versions beautifully clearly. Bravo! Front page stuff all the way, I'd say. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these comments. Done as you suggest; I agree that the "Widening repertory" title was duff - I found it hard (and still find it hard) to think of a satisfactory heading for this section. I have changed it to "Entering the mainstream", but if you can think of something better, please suggest it. Brianboulton (talk) 00:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Finetooth comments: I found and fixed three minor glitches (a missing period and two typos). Otherwise, I found no problems except the three noted below. In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I know only slightly more about opera than I do about brake linings and not all that much about music, though I did play the trombone badly for three years in high school. The article is quite well-done and informative and seems to me to be a good candidate for FA.

Background

In the caption: "at the outset of his career as an composer of opera" - "a composer" rather than "an composer"

"on condition that each year he staged a new three-act opera" - "Stage" rather than "staged"?

Sources

For the Rous book, maybe "Camden: Victor Talking Machine Company" to make the entry parallel to the others. Or if Camden is too obscure, maybe "Camden, New Jersey: Victor Talking Machine Company". Also, the book's OCLC is 220121268, says WorldCat here, if you want to add it. - Finetooth (talk) 19:41, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these comments and for the minor fixes that you made to the text. I appreciate that you may not have much relevant expert knowledge, but I hope that you nevertheless found the article readable. Brianboulton (talk) 21:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]