Wikipedia:Peer review/Karmichael Hunt/archive2

Karmichael Hunt

Previous Peer Review archived here

This article recently got GA status, how can it be improved. I'd like a few reviews to get a comprehensive outlook of the article. SpecialWindler 05:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Does it have what it takes to become FA. SpecialWindler 09:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Review by Awadewit

SpecialWindler, overall I thought this was quite well done. Sports articles can be quite hard to write. It is hard to source them and it is often hard for editors who are invested in the figure to write dispassionately. I don't know if you are a fan of Hunt, but this article is remarkably dispassionate, in my opinion. Nice work. I really must protest my ignorance regarding rugby once again. Perhaps I should have told you that I know next to nothing about almost all sports. Many of my comments will obviously reveal that. They will certainly give you an outsider's perspective, but you should certainly reject them if you feel that explaining a particular term would be ridiculous. Most of my comments deal with prose. It may look like there are a lot, but it is really just a long list of small things.

General content comments:

• I assume there is no fair/free use picture available for the infobox?
  • No, I've looked on Flickr and no luck, (there are a few free images of him, but there either of his back or very far away and low resolution). I am not in a position to go take a photo of him either. SpecialWindler 04:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• In general, there is very little information about his life, except for his rugby playing. Has he done anything else? Does he do charity events? Is he married/have a partner? Did he go to college? Since this is a biography page, one would hope that it would be a bit more comprehensive (when I write about authors, for example, I do not just write about their books). I understand that this information might be hard to come by, though.
• Hunt saw a loss of form in his second season - Can you explain this in more detail?
• Hunt started the 2006 season well, making a deadly combination with Darren Lockyer. - Can you explain this in more detail?
  • Removed Statement SpecialWindler 10:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
• In the second paragraph of 2006, I did not understand who was doing the selecting at different times.
• Hunt sustained an injury and was sidelined for 8 weeks. - What injury? Details?

General style comments:

• Hunt should always be referred to as "Hunt," never as "Karmichael," unless you have to distinguish him from another Karmichael Hunt. So, for example, in the "Biography" section, all of the "Karmichael's" should be changed to "Hunt's." It is a sign of respect.
• Per the manual of style rules on headings, headings should only have the first letter of the first word capitalized (unless they are titles of books or some other exception).
• The footnotes should all have spaces after them in the text, so the text doesn't appear all smushed together.
• In the "References" section, you should make clear where the websources are coming from. That way the reader doesn't have to click on them to find out. See this example for all of the information that needs to be included.

Specific prose comments:

• His preferred position is at fullback but he has also played at wing and halfback. - I don't know how rugby language works, but this sentence should either read:

• "His preferred position is at fullback, but he has also played at wing and at halfback." (parallel construction with the "at's")

OR

• "His preferred position is fullback, but he has also played wing and halfback." (parallel construction without the "at's")

• He has represented Queensland in the State of Origin on two occasions and as an Australia Test representative on seven occasions. - I had no idea what the State of Origin was, but I suppose no one going to this page would be that ignorant? Also, is "Test representative" supposed to be capitalized?
  • Comment:It's good to see someone who doesn't know much about league, you can pick up slight errors that I would miss. For people who know nothing about state of origin, it's wikilinked and I added a bit more to understand it better. SpecialWindler 00:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• Although only aged 20, Hunt already has 3 full NRL seasons under his belt. - Write out NRL the first time you use it and then follow it by (NRL) - I had to go back and figure out what you were talking about. Also, "under his belt" is colloquial usage and unencyclopedic language.
• Hunt was was born in New Zealand before moving to Australia at 11. - "age 11" maybe? This was a little unclear and awkwardly phrased; the whole "before" bit is awkward as well
• He played all his rugby league with the Queensland Rugby League before making his NRL debut for the Broncos. - First part of the sentence doesn't make sense; how about "Before making his NRL debut with the Broncos, he played [insert number] seasons with the Queensland Rugby League, [some sort of descriptive phrase, like "a representative team" (are they akin to minor league teams in baseball?).
• He was the Dally M rookie of the year in 2004, and marked as a potential super-star of the game. - "marked by" whom as a potential superstar? (and "superstar" is a single word)
  • Comment:The lead is a summary of the article. The superstar bit is cited below... SpecialWindler 00:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I think you need to say in the lead who called him a superstar. Awadewit ^Talk 07:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• After a poor 2005 season, he was first selected for Queensland and Australia in 2006. - Do these teams have names? These sound like places to me. (My ignorance again.)
• Later on in 2006 he was part of the Broncos grand final winning side. - Confusing how this happened, to me, anyway. Is "grand final winning side" rugby language? It sounds awkward to me. I'll propose a hypothetical statement: "After being traded to the Broncos in the middle of the 2006 seasons, he was an integral part of their efforts to win the Grand Finale."
  • Comment: It is a rugby league language thingo. Don't know how you got your hypthetical statement from. I'll look at the statement though. SpecialWindler 22:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I was just making up information to demonstrate a better way of phrasing the sentence. Awadewit ^Talk 07:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• where he was a dominating figure for the school's first XV in rugby union and went on to become part of the 2003 Australian Schoolboys representative side for rugby league - Please just bear with my ignorance here: "first xv in rugby union" - what does this mean? does it need a capitalization or a link? "in the rugby union," perhaps? also, "for the rugby league," perhaps?
  • Comment:He played a little bit of rugby union in his early career., XV is roman numerals for 15, but you have a point it should be "15" rather than "XV". SpecialWindler 22:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
• After some good trial games for the Broncos on the wing[7]he was originally picked on the bench for this game,[8]coach Wayne Bennett moved him to start at fullback, leaving named starter Motu Tony on the bench. - too many clauses; also what does "picked on the bench" mean? You might link or explain.
• With Darren Lockyer's move to five-eighth this left some large shoes to fill in the fullback position. - I assume "five-eighth" is a position? Could we link that? Also, "large shoes to fill" is too colloquial for an encyclopedia.
• Hunt's selection was a success and he played every game in 2004 for the Broncos and was the Bronco's top try-scorer for 2004. - Could we link "try-scorer"? I have no idea what that is. I assume it means he tried to score a lot. :)
  • Comment: I'll link it to try. A try is crossing the line, getting 4 scoring points) SpecialWindler 22:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
• Hunt was tipped to be a selection for the Australian Kangaroos, but coach Wayne Bennett, who was his club coach and coach of the Kangaroos decided not to select him due to him being in his debut season and possibly too inexperienced for international representation. - "tipped to be" is too colloquial
• "some labeling it Karmichael's second-year syndrome" - why is this italicized? and who are the "some"?
• Hunt's form paid off in May 2006 when he was selected to replace the injured Anthony Minichello[19]in the Kangaroos team to play New Zealand at Suncorp Stadium on May 5, being selected over the in-form Matt Bowen. - My ignorance, probably, but I don't understand the difference between the "form" and "in-form."
  • Form is the state in which the player is. For instance Hunt, is in good/in form, (he's involved, scoring tries, making runs, good stuff etc.) but out of form is (making mistakes, not playing well etc.) SpecialWindler 00:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• After his test debut on May 5, 2006, Hunt was tipped to be the Queensland state of origin fullback in Origin I in the 2006 series. - "tipped" is colloquial; can we link or explain "Origin I"?
• Hunt returned to the Broncos side in round 25 against the Parramatta Eels playing on the wing, after Justin Hodges was at fullback after impressive form during Hunt's absence. - awkward phrasing; how about "Hunt returned to the Broncos side in round 25 against the Parramatta Eels, after Justin Hodges' impressive form at fullback, in Hunt's absence, at fullback [did something]."
• Bennett maintained that this switch would be a long term thing - "thing" is not very professional writing, which is what we are aiming for at wikipedia - :)
• Hunt retained his Australian jumper for the 2007 ANZAC Test - what does "Australian jumper" mean?
• Hunt was expected to, and was named fullback for the first state of Origin game for Queensland on May 23[41][42]despite other contenders for the role include in form Cowboy's fullback Matt Bowen and in form Melbourne fullback Billy Slater. - run-on sentence
• Hunt is signed with the Broncos until the end of 2009[45]and has emerged as possibly the next Brisbane Broncos captain after Darren Lockyer, if he stays at the club[46]which has the endorsement and support of current captain Lockyer. - Right now, the sentence grammatically states that the club has the "endorsement and support" of Lockyer (the "which" refers back to "club"). I think you mean to say that Hunt's captaincy has his support - you need to rework it.
  
  Awadewit ^Talk 14:30, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments by Deckiller

• On the whole, the article is quite good. There are plenty of sources for such a short article; I'm impressed. The prose is the main concern; here are a few examples:
  • "Although only aged 20, Hunt already has 3 full NRL seasons under his belt." In general, it's best to avoid informal phrases like "under his belt"; our non-native readers may take these phrases literally. Something like "already played in three seasons..."
  • Basic numbers like 3 and 6 can be spelled out.
  • "He played all his rugby league with the Queensland Rugby League before making his NRL debut for the Broncos." "Played all his rugby league" is awkward.
  • "Later on in 2006 he was part of the Broncos grand final winning side." "grand final winning side" is a bit awkward. Perhaps "championship side/team"? Apostophe after Broncos.
  • "Karmichael and his parents, Hans and Tera[2]moved to the Brisbane suburb of Algester[2]when Karmichael was 11.[3]" Missing a comma after "Tera".
  • It's awkward to put cites in the middle of sentences without punctuation; this needs to be fixed throughout the article.
  • "Hunt resigned with the Broncos for two years until the end of 2006," Does this mean "re-signed"?
    • Sorry, that was my fault. I changed it while reading the article. Awadewit ^Talk 18:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
  • "Hunt started the 2006 season well, making a deadly combination with Darren Lockyer." "Deadly" is informal (per above).
  • ""He was taken, concussed, from the field and played no further part in the match, which Australia won convincingly 50-12." "Convincingly" is redundant, as the score tells the tale. Also, "concussed" is a rare find on Wikipedia; you might want to reword it.
  • The "Statistics" in the "Career Statistics" heading needs to be lowercased.
• It's a really good start; all it needs is a good copy-edit. However, remember that we also do not want to be too formal. Avoid words like "whilst", "utilize", "amongst", "in order" to, "the majority of", "due to the fact that", etc. — Deckiller 17:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments by Jayron32

Looks like Awadewit and Deckiller got here first. Since it was requested I give my review as well, here's what it looks like to me. This looks VERY close to Feature ready. Some may object on comprehensiveness grounds, since the article is a bit light. Some random thoughts:

• The image "Image:Karmichael Hunt training.jpg" is not covered by Fair Use, even with the rationale. Basically, since he is alive, it is possible to create a free image of him. Attend a Brisbane Broncos game with a camera. Take a picture. Upload it yourself. Its free now. Thus, since the image is replacable, it isn't covered by fair use in this article (images should NOT be able to be replaced by a free image (i.e. he is dead, and it is unlikely to uncover a free image of him...)
• There's a [citation needed] tag. That needs fixing with a reference.
• Could we add any info on the 2005 season separately? We have 2004 covered pretty well. The section title teases 2005, but we get very little on this.
• "Deadly combination" is a tad unencyclopedic in tone.
• The first time Kangaroos are mentioned, there is no earlier context in the article to make it clear that this was the Australian Test International team. I had to dig to convince myself that was true. Either change this to "Australian National team" or whatever term was used earlier, OR mention Kangaroos earlier in the article in connection with the Australian National Team to establish context for those of us unfamiliar with them.
• What injury put him out of the third game?
• The paragraph on the Hodges/Hunt position exchange needs some reworking. Its repetitive in places, and could use a general rewrite.
• A possible idea for expanding the article is to change the organization of his Career review into three separate sections: NRL Career, State of Origin Career, and Test Career. That might allow for some more expansion in each area, and you could then review his individual performance at each level. That might make the article more comprehensive in its scope, and might be a better organizational method.
  • This article used to be like that but in an earlier peer review it was suggested the way it is because it is repetitive in some parts, so I'm not going to change it back. SpecialWindler 04:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Just some ideas. Let me know if there is any other comments you would like. This article is easily GA level, it just may need some expansion and work to meet the Comprehensiveness and Briliant/Compelling prose requirements of FA. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 04:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick question: Why did you archive the previous Peer Review so quickly? There were some active discussions going on, and now that is all gone. Just curious. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I felt that the discussions were closed, most of the items done by the three reviewers were addressed, there were a few items still there, If you feel that there were still active disscussions there, I can revert it. SpecialWindler 21:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I haven't transcluded this onto Wikipedia Peer Review yet because I haven't finished upgrading the article. so I don't want it reviewed. I have just opened it because other reviewers, I asked, may haven't had an oppurtunity to review it. SpecialWindler 21:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)