Entremet edit
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I've returned after a long absence to improve on some of the articles on medieval cuisine that I've worked on extensively before. I think most of the medieval aspects of entremets are covered by now (just holler if something's missing), and I'd like to start describing the development after c. 1500. Hopefully it's possible to take this to GA status, maybe all the way to an FAC.
Do your best/worst!
Peter Isotalo 11:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oh a few points to start out with. If it was an elaborate form of entertainment dish then I suppose that implies it was only for the wealthy/royalty, but it may be better to make that clear from the outset. Also I presume this type of thing may have occurred in non western societies, but I have no idea. It's a failure of nearly all Western scholarship that assumes everything originates there. Worth checking into to make sure the history is accurate. Otherwise a rather interesting article. I'm looking forward to seeing how this ties into the modern form. - Taxman Talk 21:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
- I tweaked the wording to be clearer about the upper class-status. I don't really know anything about similar dishes outside of Europe, though. I'm sure that elaborate dinner entertainment has existed in other cultures, but I've never read anything specifically about it. Do you know of any appropriate sources on non-European culinary history? Peter Isotalo 14:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- No sorry, I haven't the slightest idea, short of plugging into a library catalog. Though since this is a specific tradition, I don't think you'd be required to cover all meal entertainment that happened in other cultures in this article, but if there were something that were similar to the original meaning of an entertainment dish that occurred elsewhere then that would justify mention. But if this really did evolve into general mean entertainment, maybe a brief mention of other forms of that would be justified, I'm not convinced either way yet. Perhaps a couple sentences linking to another article (existing or not) would suffice. - Taxman Talk 15:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- I did quick search on google books for "culinary history" and it comes up with some possible sources. The first result "Food: A Culinary History from Antiquity to the Present" has some promise due to the way it covers traditions and so forth, but from it's table of contents it is heavily focused on Western civiization. It does have some on the Arabic and Egyptians which may be relevant to the article. Another comes up on the culinary history of Southeast Asia, though that's awfully focused on one area to be useful. "Cuisine and Culture: A History of Food and People" by Linda Civitello discusses various sources on culinary history including "Food: A Culinary History..." and remarks that book is European focused, while the Civitello book itself seems to be one of the most well rounded food history sources I could find. - Taxman Talk 20:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- I tweaked the wording to be clearer about the upper class-status. I don't really know anything about similar dishes outside of Europe, though. I'm sure that elaborate dinner entertainment has existed in other cultures, but I've never read anything specifically about it. Do you know of any appropriate sources on non-European culinary history? Peter Isotalo 14:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch comments: Very briefly, here are some suggestions for improvement.
- What is there reads well and is interesting. There are a few rough spots - for example the timing seems off in this section The earliest mention of a specified entremet can be found in an edition of Le Viandier, a medieval recipe collection, from ca 1300. but a few sentences later it says Later on the entremets would take the shape of various types of illusion foods, ... then the next paragraph starts Starting around 1300 the entremets began to involve not just eye-catching displays of amusing haute cuisine, ...
- Provide context for the reader by (for example) identifying the royals and nobles better - the son of Edward I [of England] or At a banquet held by [France's] Charles V in honor of [Holy Roman] Emperor Charles IV in 1378 See WP:PCR
- Per WP:MOS#Images, images should be set to thumb width to allow reader preferences to take over. For portrait format images, "upright" can be used to make the image narrower.
- Nothing important should be in the lead only - since it is a summary, it should all be repeated in the body of the article itself - but the etymology is only in the lead. The modern entremet is only there too, but presumably this will be added later as the article is expanded.
- I think there needs to be more on the timing of entremets witihin a meal - this is unclear to me
Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
- I made some changes which should clear up most of your concerns. I included a reference to a serving as a met, but I don't think there's much else to say about it. I'm aware of the lack of information about the modern entermet, the problem is just that I have trouble finding sources that actually discuss it. Peter Isotalo 14:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)