Demosthenes edit
This article had already goon through a peer-review (Wikipedia:Peer review/Demosthenes/archive1). It is now a GA and I intend to nominate for FA. But I need your input and help. Especially, about style, content and prose. Please, make your suggestions!--Yannismarou 15:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- It's very good. Looks well researched. The biggest thing is the huge number of quote boxes seems to detract rather than add to the article; they're large and break up the text a lot. I've not seen them used in other biographies, especially not in that number. Second is the references in pop culture needs to be removed unless it can be referenced and the references show that the mentions are important enough to warrant coverage. - Taxman Talk 19:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- About the quotes: It is not the only biography with quotes. You can check two featured biographies: Pericles and President Ford. Demosthenes was an orator and I believe that some monumental phrases of him would be nice to be available for the reader. I chose a different kind of quote box. Is it less detractive? Section "Refs in pop culture" is a small opening to a sub-page. I've also doubts about this section, but I thought not to remove it, since the way ancient personalities are treated by novel writers etc. is a quite interesting topic. Anyway, I'll check for references. Thanks!--Yannismarou 07:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think the problem is there are just too many quotes. I'm not saying you have to cull them, but I'm predicting you're going to hear the same thing when you take this to FAC. Make sure they are relevant to the section they are in as much as possible. And the pop culture section should at minimum be demoted to a sub sub section, perhaps fit it in at the end of the previous section. It fits in with the legacy/importance idea covered there. But yeah, you bring up a good point, if the way he is treated is interesting it's worth covering. But it definitely needs to be replaced with sourced analysis about how he is covered, not listings of cartoons etc he is referred to in. - Taxman Talk 12:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- I got rid of the "Refs in pop culture" and "See also" sections. I incorporated the first one in "Rhetorical Legacy". The links of the "See also" section have been incorporated in the prose. I replaced some of the quote boxes to be more relevant with the text, but I haven't yet cut any of them yet. But I'm still thinking about that!--Yannismarou 15:27, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- I also got rid of some of the quote boxes. I hope it is better now.--Yannismarou 13:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- Looks pretty good. If there's any problems left in it, it would be in the content which is beyond me to judge. You may get people in FAC that will still think there needs to be less quote boxes, but that's an opinion, so you don't need to jump on it right away until a consensus developes that it needs to be done. I'd say you have a fair chance of successfully passing FAC, so send it up, I'm sure you can deal with anything that comes up there. - Taxman Talk 02:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- I also got rid of some of the quote boxes. I hope it is better now.--Yannismarou 13:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- I got rid of the "Refs in pop culture" and "See also" sections. I incorporated the first one in "Rhetorical Legacy". The links of the "See also" section have been incorporated in the prose. I replaced some of the quote boxes to be more relevant with the text, but I haven't yet cut any of them yet. But I'm still thinking about that!--Yannismarou 15:27, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think the problem is there are just too many quotes. I'm not saying you have to cull them, but I'm predicting you're going to hear the same thing when you take this to FAC. Make sure they are relevant to the section they are in as much as possible. And the pop culture section should at minimum be demoted to a sub sub section, perhaps fit it in at the end of the previous section. It fits in with the legacy/importance idea covered there. But yeah, you bring up a good point, if the way he is treated is interesting it's worth covering. But it definitely needs to be replaced with sourced analysis about how he is covered, not listings of cartoons etc he is referred to in. - Taxman Talk 12:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- About the quotes: It is not the only biography with quotes. You can check two featured biographies: Pericles and President Ford. Demosthenes was an orator and I believe that some monumental phrases of him would be nice to be available for the reader. I chose a different kind of quote box. Is it less detractive? Section "Refs in pop culture" is a small opening to a sub-page. I've also doubts about this section, but I thought not to remove it, since the way ancient personalities are treated by novel writers etc. is a quite interesting topic. Anyway, I'll check for references. Thanks!--Yannismarou 07:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- This is overall a very nicely done article.
If you feel bound to act in the spirit of that dignity, whenever you come into court to give judgement on public causes, you must bethink yourselves that with his staff and his badge every one of you receives in trust the ancient pride of Athens.
Demosthenes (On the Crown, 210)
My suggestion with the quote boxes is to try to somehow tie them into the section of text more / better (like a caption on a picture will often explain its relation to that part of the article). While the source of the quote is listed, it was not always clear to me exactly why it was placed in that section of the article. So, could you add some sort of brief explanatory note / caption to make the relation between the quote and the article there clearer? For example (see box), if I read it right, the quote in the "Career as logographer" section is Deomsthenes defense of the serious nature of the courts in Athens, so after the identification could it say something like this (my quick sentence - more to show the idea of a caption than as a suggestion for one here). Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch 14:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your suggestions! You have a point. I'll try to figure out a solution, although I donot know if the system with the captions can work. Maybe more information would do the job. I just ask this peer-review not to be archived, until such issues are settled.--Yannismarou 14:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
- I made the quotes a bit more informative, following your suggestions. I also chose another type of quote boxes, which I think serves better this purpose. What do you think?--Yannismarou 16:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
- The boxes seem fine to me (I made a few minor copyedits to clean up the captions - please revert if I erred). Thanks for all of your work on this and the changes - I look forward to see this as a Featured Article someday soon. Ruhrfisch 17:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
- Done.--Yannismarou 14:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks - sorry I did not mention this in my earlier comments. As I said before, it looks very good and I imagine will be Featured soon. Ruhrfisch 14:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- No problem and thanks for the nice words. And in case you find any syntactical or grammatical errors (since you are a native English speaker), just tell me to fix them.--Yannismarou 15:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)