Wikipedia:Peer review/British Empire flag/archive1

British Empire flag

I would like to get this topic peer reviewed because I want to bring it up to GA standards eventually. The topic is very niche, and I did my best to collect all the sources that I could on it. Many of them are from old newspapers, so there are lots of opinions and proposals to cover. What concerns me the most is the wording I may have used to detail the contents of each source. I want to try and cut down on anything that reads like original research or as though it is expressing an opinion. Additionally, I would also like to know if the article is formatted well and if the images do well to add to the content.

Thanks, UAmtoj (talk) 07:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

First off this is a really interesting topic.

Sometimes I am unsure whether I believe what it is saying is the whole truth however. The article seems to be composed mostly of primary sources or what at a distance we think of as primary sources - that is, newspaper reports from the period.

Are there any books or academic research papers on the topic? It is very wide ranging topic, covering a lot of countries with very different political situations as you observe. I worry that you might be accused on original research without a slightly more academic level of sourcing to back up - or challenge - some of your observations.

For example A Very British Coup: Canadianism, Quebec, and Ethnicity in the Flag Debate, 1964-1965 ; The Red Ensign and the Maple Leaf: Canada’s Two Flag Traditions Jim Killock (talk) 23:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to read through the article. The best source available on the Empire flag, specifically the defaced White Ensign that was commonly used, is the paper written by Ralph Kelly for the 27th International Congress of Vexillology. The research he did covers much of the background that is usually missing wherever the flag appears online, and even corrects misconceptions like it supposedly being designed for the British Empire Exhibition of 1924.

A flag for the Empire

While this is a great reference, it seems to be the only research done specifically on the topic of Empire flags. I want to not be so dependent on all the newspapers cited throughout the rest of the article, but information is hard to come by otherwise. Many of them do at least feature notable figures in their reporting, even some prime ministers.

I did try my best to not overstep the limits of what any of the newspapers had actually reported, and I also made an effort to pull from a large quantity of them to make up for coverage in most being somewhat short. However, from my understanding of your feedback, I believe that may have contributed to the feeling that some of the details in the article are fuzzy. In any case, the reference list contains just about every mention of an Empire flag publicly available online, so any improvements may have to cut down on weaker sources rather than trying to find new ones. UAmtoj (talk) 06:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The issue is though that better assessments that is not "public" may be available. Take [The Red Ensign and the Maple Leaf: Canada’s Two Flag Traditions] which is also available online, shows how the debate about the flag went back to the 1890s, and that the first objections to the Imperial designs were simply complexity (In spite of the widespread use of these flags, the complexity of the composite shields inevitably prompted new suggestions that could be adopted as a national flag. Many proposals were made in the magazine The Week in 1895). The second source, which I haven't got a copy of, makes the claim that minority groups were cut out of the debate about what replaced it.

Academic research will give you a wider perspective than news articles can, and will fill in the gaps. As you can see, it is possible for me to find things, with no expertise at all. You would be able to do a lot better!

The issue with it is that you do sometimes have to dig, if it hasn't been wrapped up into a book.

I use Google Scholar and JSTOR for most things. If there is no access, often WP:LIBRARY for this. You need 500 edits to use it, which will be very soon for you it looks, you are about 100 edits short.

Even so, I could be wrong about what is available on the Empire Flag as such, or it might take more digging than I am guessing. On the national debates, tho, there should be plenty. There's also plenty on Empire Day which seems related, but perhaps a bit tagential to what you are trying to achieve. Jim Killock (talk) 10:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Checking Google Scholar was a great tip, thanks again. I managed to find an online book that has a small section covering the White Ensign version of the Empire flag, and it just so happens that it verifies a lot of the important dates in the article. Not much else seems to be available out there, but this little bit of info was a great haul nonetheless.

National Flags of Occasion UAmtoj (talk) 05:15, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

One more for you is academia.edu, which has a lot of papers published by the authors themselves. Sometimes this includes things like theses, and conference papers, which aren't otherwise available. Jim Killock (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Z1720

• The lede is quite short. I suggest expanding it out.
• " It was observed that the entry of Manitoba in the federation resulted in its arms being added to the badge by flag makers across the country. The article speculated that the Federation of Australia would result in a similar flag being designed using the arms of its states, and that an "uninterrupted evolution" of unique emblems from across the colonies would eventually form one Empire flag." Needs a citation.
• "Ultimately, the Irish representation on the flag was kept, and no additions were made." Needs a citation.
• "The "British Commonwealth of Nations" had already become a term with which to describe the dominions collectively by this time." Needs a citation.
• "The Commonwealth would go on to adopt an organisational flag in 1976, but it has no official status in any member state. Many of the colonies already gained independence by the time of its adoption, and the flag carries a theme of multilateral cooperation rather than imperialism. As such, it cannot be considered an Empire flag, despite representing the same group of countries." Needs a citation.
• "but records of a design incorporating these elements together in the past do not appear to exist." Needs a citation.
• "Whether this flag was distributed for the royal tour or was obtained elsewhere is not mentioned." I don't think this is needed. If it is, it needs a citation.
• Ref 59: Per MOS:ALLCAPS, the title of the source should not be in all caps.

I hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 00:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. I have made changes to the areas highlighted to cut down on unsourced text. However, I am unsure about what exactly to add to the opening paragraph. Do you have any suggestions? UAmtoj (talk) 21:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)