Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Timeline of Scottish football/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:31, 28 May 2018 (UTC) [1].

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Timeline of Scottish football

Timeline of Scottish football (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured list candidates/Timeline of Scottish football/archive1

Nominator(s): ShugSty (talk) 16:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because, with the assistance of several editors, it is now a concise and informative list of notable events in the history of Scottish football, and is fully and appropriately referenced. ShugSty (talk) 16:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

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The most obvious thing that jumps out at me is that the list is in reverse chronological order. There is no way that a "timeline" should have the earliest events at the end. You wouldn't expect to see a timeline of the history of the universe which ended with the Big Bang........... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Yep - that seems reasonable. Done! ShugSty (talk) 19:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

"This is a timeline of Scottish football which contains notable football-related events that have occurred both on and off the field from the mid 1800s up to the present time." - sentences like this in list leads have been deprecated for many years, remove it and bulk up the rest of the lead a bit. Also, there's not a single image in the article - surely there are some relevant ones that could be added....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:04, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Still waiting for the first part of the above to be addressed.

I've now made a start on this, with a bit of spiel about the football clubs. I'm a bit unsure about how best to progress as I can't find a similar article for pointers (or to rip off :) ). I'll continue to do as best as I can over then next few days though. (ShugSty 16/3/18)

I've now come up with some paragraphs for the lead ShugSty (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

I've also noticed that, while almost all the entries are written in the present tense, there are a handful such as "Motherwell captain Phil O'Donnell, 35, collapsed on the pitch" which are not - make sure all are consistent..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I've had a look through and made some amendments; hopefully I've now corrected all such instances of this. (ShugSty 16/3/18)

"The crowd of 122,714 that watched Rangers win over Celtic in the 1973 Scottish Cup Final is the last six-figure attendance at any match in Britain" - this is not true, the official attendance figure for the FA Cup final was 100,000 right up to 1985 -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah! Having re-read the the source, it does actually says "100,000 +", so I'll rephrase accordingly. Thanks. ShugSty (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

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• A few questions:
  • 1907: "Celtic become the first Scottish club" to win the double. Had a non-Scottish club done it before then? If not, then do you need to specify "Scottish"? - Preston and Aston Villa both did the English "double" in the 1890s (ShugSty 9/3/18)
    • Okay, but this is a list of Scottish history, and it's referring to the Scottish double. No where else in the article is it specified anything in Scottish, I just don't think it's needed here. Nitpicky but that's what FL is for. :)
      • Yep, kind of see your point. Still felt there was a need to highlight it as a "Scottish" double, as opposed to the first ever anywhere, so I've rephrased to: "Celtic win both the league title and the Scottish Cup in the same season, becoming the first club to win the the double in Scotland" (ShugSty 10/3/18 - slightly tweaked from my first amendment the previous day)
  • Above also applies to 1947. Clubs in Northern Ireland and Egypt (!) appear to have done their domestic "treble" earlier. However, by you querying this, I came across an error - it was actually 1949 Rangers did the first treble, so I've now corrected the list to reflect this. (ShugSty 9/3/18)
  • 1931: Thomson's death. Yes, it's obviously relevant, but is that because it's the first death on the pitch? The only? Are there others? If there are, are they mentioned? If they aren't, why not? I feel like even the barest of explanation as to why that entry is there would help. This would help with the 2007 entry as well; are these the only two deaths to ever occur on the Scottish pitch? Can't say for certain if they're the only deaths in Scottish game, but they're certainly by far the most high profile (ShugSty 9/3/18)
  • 1978: What's particularly notable about the coaches switching teams? See also 1986's entry on Ferguson (the entry on Souness explains the relevance) Added info to all three entries (1978 x 2, 1986 x 1) to clarify (ShugSty 14/3/18)
  • This is an issue in 1989 (Johnston) Added info to clarify (ShugSty 9/3/18)
  • This is an issue in 1991 (Souness-Smith) Added info to clarify (ShugSty 14/3/18)
  • Otherwise, I see no major issues. --Golbez (talk) 19:46, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I think I've addressed all the points you raised now. ShugSty (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry, never came back: Support. --Golbez (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

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• For a football list, it does absolutely not mention non-association football anywhere. Nergaal (talk) 10:39, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Why would it? There is only one sport that is referred to in the UK as "football", and that is the sport which the list covers...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:33, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

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Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:30, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments initial pass: "first ever rules of Association Football" no need to capitalise association football. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18) "early pioneers of the game throughout the UK" this kind of claim needs a ref. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18) You link London but not Glasgow, be consistent one way or the other. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18) "This is a timeline of Scottish football ..." I know you aren't opening the lead with this, but it's still a little odd to see this in this format. It could be that you could start the article with "The timeline of Scottish football started in .... with ...." or similar? Removed "timeline" wording and added more text to lead (ShugSty 17/4/18) "The first documented club in the world dedicated to football" is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) "established club Queen's Park are established.[4]" repetitive use of "established". Rephrased (ShugSty 6/4/18) "England and Scotland" is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) A shedload of overlinking going on, e.g. Queen's Park is linked four times in the 1870s section alone. Sorted. (ShugSty 6/4/18) Image captions which are complete sentences need a full stop. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18) " first international" is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) "Dr. John Smith becomes the first player to score a hat-trick in a Scottish Cup Final, netting all three of Queen's Park's goals in a 3–1 win over Dumbarton.[11]" worth pointing out that this final was a replay after the first match finished 2-1 but null due to a protest from Dumbarton. Done (ShugSty 17/4/18) "(Ireland before the late 1970s" Ireland is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) "during a British Home Championship match between Scotland and England.[31]" BHC piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) "The damage caused at Ibrox Park by the 1902 disaster, which caused the deaths of 25 people." 2 x caused. And no need for full stop. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) World War I or First World War? Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) Same for II & Second. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) " inaugural European Cup Winners' Cup" piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) I won't note any more but there are lots of these. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) Bremner caption needs no full stop. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) " the following year's World Cup in Argentina" not the right World Cup link. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) "Scotland (in blue)..." caption needs no full stop. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18) The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2018 (UTC) I've addressed most of the above, and will try and sort out the outstanding points over the weekend. ShugSty (talk) 21:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC) ShugSty you still have responded to a few of my comments? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:55, 15 April 2018 (UTC) It would be much easier if you could respond inline and sign your comments rather than your bold comments? The Rambling Man (talk) 00:13, 17 April 2018 (UTC) I think I've addressed all the points raised now. The lead paragraphs may need some more tweaking though. ShugSty (talk) 14:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

• Apologies for forgetting to check back here. It's nearly there now, but I've found a few minor points:
  • The purple team from Edinburgh is inconsistently referred to as "Heart of Midlothian" and "Hearts". I would prefer that the former is used throughout
  • I found at least two events described completely in the past tense whereas everything else is in the present. There's also some (e.g. 1960, 1973, 1980) which mix the two
• Hope this helps -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:23, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • • I've changed all the references from "Hearts" to "Heart of Midlothian". Also had a re-run through, and (hopefully) now changed all the remaining past tense phrases to present tense. ShugSty (talk) 18:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

• 1883: The British Home Championship (also known as the Home International Championship) becomes an annual competition contested between the UK's four national teams, Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland.[32] The current ref does not say the tournament was established in 1883. First games were played in 1884. 1977 is the last time SCO won BHC. Nergaal (talk) 22:01, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

  The first BHC games were played in the 1883/84 season. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

  Is there any actual source showing that there IS a 1883/84 season for BHC and not just a 1884 one? Just because modern tournaments are centered around winter, doesn't mean that 100 years ago, when even things like referees were being standardized, that was still the case. Nergaal (talk) 06:29, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

  Given that the first game of the competition took place in January 1884, it's pretty obvious that the setting up of the championship would have taken place during 1883 (probably after a dozen or so meetings, committees, eyc). However none of the sources make any mention of that. I've now rejigged slightly, to tie in with the info that is provided in the sources. ShugSty (talk) 10:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support - I made a couple of minor tweaks but that's it..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:11, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Review by PresN

Giving this some attention. As an aside, like TRM noted above, the use of bold comments instead of plain text+signatures, along with the floating horizontal lines instead of headings or regular indents makes this nomination really hard to read.

• "progressed further with the setting up of the Scottish Football League" - that is an awkward phrasing to my ears, consider "progressed further with the founding of the Scottish Football League" Done ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• "Other clubs have enjoyed brief periods of success; Heart of Midlothian" - should be a colon, since what follows is an expansion on what "other clubs" meant, not just a related clause Done ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• "for over the next 50 years the national side" - awkward; since you already started the sentence with "following", you can just say "for over 50 years the national side" Done ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• "due to inferior goal difference" - link goal difference Done ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• "and longest established club Queen's Park are formed" - the convention of clubs/nations being plural nouns keeps throwing me off, but in this case the subject of the sentence is "club", not "Queen's Park", so it should be "is formed" Done ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• "Real win 7–3 in one of the best known of European finals" - known, not know of Done ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• "and regarded by many as one of the greatest matches of all time" - "by many" is a peacock phrase It's not perhaps the best phrase. To more closely match the source(s), I've rephrased slightly. However, if that's not acceptable I'm happy to take it out. ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• "Brechin also equalled the Scottish record" - past tense Changed to "equal" ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• Not doing a source review at this time, but you've got a "The Glasgiw Herald" in there, some unformatted ISBNs, and ref 19 is a self-published book. Also, "A Sporting Nation - BBC" is a combination of a work and published, and should be two fields (and you link it to BBC Sport the 3rd time it comes up, for some reason)
  • "Glasgiw" Sorted ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Ref 19 - Although a self-published book, the author worked for years as Head of Communications/Media for the SFA and is currently working for UEFA as a media officer. ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Unformatted ISBNs - Sorry, I don't understand. Can you clarify? Ok, now all fixed ShugSty (talk) 01:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • A Sporting Nation - Done ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• The choices of what to include in this list seem pretty arbitrary at times- you have the first time each team wins a cup, sure, but then various other times a team won without explanation for why that one mattered as opposed to all the times you don't mention a winner (e.g. you call out the 1904 Scottish Cup, but not the 1905- I guess because of the hat trick?)
  • Arbitrayness - Yeah, I suppose you've got a point, but a "timeline" list is always going to be somewhat subjective ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Cup wins - Yes, it's the hat trick ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• You also call out world/non-world record attendances/records... but it's not clear if those records still stand or not in all cases; maybe the non-world attendance ones do? Where a record has since been superseded, I've added a comment about it being a record "at the time", where I haven't put any such comment then the record still stands. ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
• In 1995 you call out Meadowbank Thistle moving/being renamed, which makes sense... but you didn't mention in 1974 that they had been founded- why do they suddenly become important enough to mention only after 21 years and a name change? Given that you don't call out pretty much any club founding, it feels like they get a mention only because otherwise 1995 would be empty. Whilst common in US sports (and maybe elsewhere) for clubs/ teams to up sticks and move to a different city/town, it is very unusual in British football. MK Dons in England are the only other example I can think of. ShugSty (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Not watchlisting, please ping. --PresN 18:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Alright, my only remaining concern is the inclusion criteria arbitrariness/not, but as sports lists aren't my area I'm going to take that one on faith a bit, as I see other sports editors above without concerns. Support. --PresN 17:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment sorry to blow a hole here, but the lead is huge, five paras, and in contravention of WP:LEAD. We should have a couple of paras in the lead, and then probably a "History" section to encompass all the detail. No content really needs to change, just the structure. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• • Done ShugSty (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 21:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Source review – I won't call these comments holes, but there are potholes that need fixing before this becomes an FL. Ref 19 (Andy Mitchell) book is by CreateSpace, a self-publishing company. What makes this a reliable source? It seems like the two facts this supports should be supportable by better references than this anyway. Even if it was reliable (which I doubt), it would need page numbers. New sources used ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) What makes European Cup History (refs 70, 82, and 88) reliable? Seriously??? ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Yes, I'm seriously asking the question. Is there some established company that publishes the site? Does it have authors who are published elsewhere? I didn't find any such evidence that would prove reliability when I looked at the page, but I'm not as familiar with soccer/football sites and might have missed something. Also, current ref 79 is to this site as well. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC) It's a fair question. It looks like a self-published website with no guide to its veracity or any kind of editorial control. Has it been used or referenced from other actual WP:RS? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Sources replaced ShugSty (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC) I still see one usage of it in current ref 83 (the number probably changed since I first commented). That looks like the last remaining issue in this source review. Let's get this one taken care of too, and this source review can be considered a pass. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC) Done ShugSty (talk) 07:00, 25 May 2018 (UTC) Ref 67 is to Knoji, a community-sourced site. I highly doubt this one could be considered reliable for much. Source replaced ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Minor formatting comment, but IFAB in ref 14 should probably be spelled out. I assume it's short for International Football Association Board, but don't know for sure. Done ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) The all caps in "TEN" in the title of ref 84 should be taken out. Done ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) The publisher of ref 124 should also be more fully spelled out. It appears to be Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC? Done ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Ref 137 could use a page number for the book. I'd tell you what it is, but Google Books unfortunately isn't offering me a free preview of this one. Google link works fine for me - maybe try a different browser ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) It's probably from you being in the U.K. Sometimes Google Books will have different previews for people in different zones. This means that I can have access to a preview in the U.S. that you can't see and vice versa. That's likely what is happening here. All the more reason to provide page numbers for verifiability. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC) No page numbers to hand, but's it's an appendix near the end of the book, so I've added that into the reference ShugSty (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC) Spot-checks of refs 94, 101, 103, 114, and 155 show two issues. First, ref 101 and the article both use the phrase "unprecedented success". Since the article doesn't put that in quotation marks, I'm uncomfortable with it. Second, ref 103 doesn't say that the 1982 U18 win was Scotland's only major international title. It supports the claim that it was their first title in European competition, but nothing further than that. link 101 (now 102) - "uncomfortable", but it's not a controversial/ contentious point nor particularly "peacocky" ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) I'm concerned because the wording is seemingly copied from the source. I'd expect to see quotation marks in such a case. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Wording rephrased and additional source added ShugSty (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC) 1982 U18 win - added another source to confirm it as being Scotland's only major title ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) On the positive side, no links show up as dead on the link-checker tool. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• As indicated by the capping of the comments above, I now consider the source review to be passed. Thanks for going through those issues and resolving them all. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.