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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of international cricket five-wicket hauls by Dennis Lillee/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 17:57, 1 November 2012 [1].

List of international cricket five-wicket hauls by Dennis Lillee edit

List of international cricket five-wicket hauls by Dennis Lillee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): —Vensatry (Ping me) 06:50, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it meets the criteria. This is loosely based upon the Kapil Dev list. Look forward to your comments and suggestions. —Vensatry (Ping me) 06:50, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Given the title is "international cricket" and not "ICC/MCC/ACB endorsed international cricket", I think that Lillee's performances in Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket Supertests and ODIs should be included for completeness. The-Pope (talk) 12:35, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Before I proceed, I need the opinion of other reviewers. —Vensatry (Ping me) 14:42, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a reasonable point if those Packer matches are considered as "internationals". The Rambling Man (talk) 07:39, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although it looks like a fair point, were these records included under the international career statistics of Lillee.ESPNcricinfo doesn't seem to include all those. —Vensatry (Ping me) 11:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There was also the World XI tour of Australia in 1971/72 games, where Lillee took possibly his most famous figures of 8/29. Again, not an official test, but for a feature list, it should be absolutely complete and omitting these innings just makes it a carbon copy of the offiical test/ODI records. Just add another section after ODIs for "Other internationals" with a note briefly explaining why they were held but not considered official tests. The scorecards are on ESPNcricinfo, but not directly linkd from the statsguru page, they are in the match archive section - ie the World XI games statistics. Also I know what you mean by the note "The five-wicket haul is defined by the accumulative sum of all formats of the game" but it doesn't make sense as it's currently written. Is it really neccessary, or should you just say "International level comprises of Test, One Day International and Twenty20 International cricket". And as for whether these "unofficial" games should be counted, Glenn McGrath thinks so. "On passing Lillee's Test wicket-taking tally of 355 in the final Test of the 2001 Ashes tour, McGrath felt he couldn't be compared to the tearaway West Australian. He said Lillee's career haul didn't include the wickets he captured in World Series Super Test and World XI matches." The-Pope (talk) 16:11, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think Dennis Lillee's stats of those series should be included in Wikipedia's article on him not in "international fifers". Zia Khan 01:10, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have enough knowledge about cricket to give an informed opinion on this issue. However, I think that if the matches in question count as true internationals, and we can source them, adding them to the list should at least be considered. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per my comments at WT:CRIC, I don't think the WSC fifers should be included, but I do think it should be mentioned at some point that they aren't listed, and if other references than just Glenn McGrath can be found that prefer Lillee's total including those wickets, it should be stated that some sources include his WSC achievements in his stats. Harrias talk 07:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a majority of people (both here as well as WT:CRIC) are against adding those statistics to this list. I've added a disclaimer at the end of the lead stating that the WSC matches are not included, as per the suggestion given by NapHit. —Vensatry (Ping me) 16:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think they should be included but marked with a different colour. Then people can decide for themselves if they want to "count" them. They seem to me to be consistent with the list title. --99of9 (talk) 01:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is an ongoing discussion regarding this at WT:CRIC. Requesting you to comment there. —Vensatry (Ping me) 18:07, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion there has somewhat stalled. I'm content that the note in the list provides adequate explanation for the inclusion criteria for this list. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 07:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments notwithstanding the Packer comment above, other issues:
  • Image caption doesn't need a full stop nor the word "just".
  • Mike Smith and John Parker are dab links.
  • "rated as "Outstanding fast bowler of his generation"" no need for capital O and there's a word missing here, like "the".
  • "nd held the record for almost two years before Ian Botham surpassed the record" record... record... repeat.
  • "and went on to " perhaps replace with "where he"
  • "at an average of 18" link average to bowling average. And we normally list averages to 2 decimal places.
  • "and was more effective "... than what? Most effective?
  • Don't link London. In fact, I would have the ground here, not the city.
  • "Leeds cricket ground, London" hey?!
  • For tied wickets, the next sort should be by runs, i.e. 5/50 is better than 5/60.

The Rambling Man (talk) 08:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 18:39, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "...in international cricket. In cricket, a five-wicket haul" In cricket is redundant already established we are talking about it with the sentence ending the way it does
  • "and was most effective at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, taking seven out his twenty three five-wicket hauls" think there might be a missing word here, as it doesn't make sense
  • Leeds Cricket Ground is known as Headingley, never heard it referred as that before
  • ref 36 doesn't appear to be formatted correctly
  • Regarding the Packer issue above. One alternative to excluding them is putting a disclaimer at the end of the lead stating that they are not included in this list, as ESPNcricinfo doesn't include them in their totals or something like that
    • I agree with you. Zia Khan 00:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NapHit (talk) 18:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support meets the criteria. NapHit (talk) 14:08, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from TBrandley (talk) 03:22, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Alt text needs to be added to the images per WP:ALT
  • "Bronze statue of Dennis Lillee, one of the Parade of Champions, located outside the Melbourne Cricket Ground" missing period at end
  • I would use actual sub-sections for general and specific references for access

TBrandley 00:25, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Zia Khan 05:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments—
  • "named the Wisden Cricketer of the Year" → “named as one of the Wisden Cricketers of the Year”.
  • "during the sixth test of the" → Test.
  • "during the final test of the same series" → Test.
  • Link Pakistan.
  • There are no col scopes or a table title on your key.
  • Replace § with *.

Zia Khan 12:27, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – Meets the standards. Zia Khan 05:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 19:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • In the "heart of Australia attack" quote, could a bracketed ['s] be added after the country name so that the grammar works in the sentence? We're allowed to make such small fixes in quotes.
  • "Lillee's performance in the World Series Cricket and World XI tour of Australia in 1971/72 are not included." First, "performance" should be plural. Second, "the" should be moved to before the second competition in the sentence. Third, the slash would be better as an en dash.
  • Lillee's name is misspelled in the last key entry.
  • In the general references, do they spell Lillee's name that way in the title? Giants2008 (Talk) 19:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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