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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Speed Grapher episodes/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Matthewedwards 01:45, 13 March 2009 [1].

List of Speed Grapher episodes edit

Nominator(s): ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c )
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Another episode list for your consideration. A minor warning: the contents of this list are quite disturbing. To quote one reviewer, "It's dark, the fetish angle has the potential to make folks very uncomfortable, and it's violent." Now that I've given fair warning, good luck! ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 03:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Goodraise (talk · contribs)
Resolved comments
  • Make use of the episodelink parameter of the cite episode template.
  • "ou" -> "ō"
  • "BREAK THE COCOON" - Should be title-cased.
  • "FUNimation" -> "Funimation" (though this may be a borderline case...)
  • "Don't use italics within quotations."
    • I assume you mean the references? I've removed the italics. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 01:54, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did you make the romanizations yourself? I'm no expert either but I'd romanize 唸る札束 as "Unaru Satsutaba" instead of "Unagi Satsu da na". Maybe ask an expert for help?
  • What is a "fetish club"?
  • "The English adaptation was licensed to Funimation" - Without giving a date, the use of past tense suggests that Funimation no longer holds that license.
  • "a box set was released." - What's in it?
  • What about Region 2? Did Gonzo release it to DVD?
  • "U.S." - Single occurence... Won't hurt to write it out.
  • ""Girls on Film" by Duran Duran served as the opening for all of the episodes." - Wrong tense. It still is the opening, is it not?
  • "The episodes have three official pieces of theme music" - I wasn't aware that episodes could own music pieces. (multiple occurences)
  • "The episodes have three official pieces of theme music" - They are "official" opposed to what?
    • Fixed when I changed the wording for the previews point. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 20:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The opening theme in the English DVD releases was therefore replaced by "Shutter Speed" by Shinkichi Mitsumune.[6]" - What was used as opening when "aired on the Independent Film Channel"?
  • "The opening theme in the English DVD releases was therefore replaced by "Shutter Speed" by Shinkichi Mitsumune.[6]" - I don't see [6] citing any of this.
    • Fixed. I had the citations in the wrong places. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 20:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Speed Grapher is not based on any other media but has spawned both a manga and a light novel." - I don't like the use of the word "spawned" here. It's unnecessarily metaphorical. It's also not necessary to say that it is not based on another media unless the reader has reason to make such a (false) assumption. And I'd like to see a citation for both manga and light novel.
  • "The six DVD compilations" - What six DVD compilations?
    • Tweaked wording. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 20:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • You're using "The six DVD compilations" as if you had introduced them already. Your tweak didn't change that. It's weird to read. How about something more like "who released it to Region 1 in six DVD compilations, each containing four episodes, between July 2006 and March 2007 and on iTunes"? -- Goodraise (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Moved some stuff around, hopefully fixing the issue. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 23:11, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "betwee" -> "between"
  • "theme music, one opening" -> "theme music: one opening"
  • "twelve uses "Hill of Poppies""
  • "Independent Film Channel was therefore "Shutter Speed"" - Tense.
  • "The opening theme for both the English DVD releases and the aired episodes on the Independent Film Channel was is therefore "Shutter Speed""
  • "Speed Grapher also aired on the Independent Film Channel" - "Also"? Where else did it air. This is an unexpected turn in the prose. It's not sensible.
    • Tweaked. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 20:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The whole second paragraph seems a bit chaotic. Are you attempting to give events in chronological order? I'd rather sort by media or region/language. -- Goodraise (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've sorted it by media and it looks a little better.... ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 23:11, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the members of the fetish club, the Roppongi Club."
  • The English licensor should be named before the English network.
  • Put "bentō" in italics.
  • "Suitengu tries to collects money from a member of his club"
  • Expand contractions.
  • What is a "secret club in tandem"?
    • That's a bit taken out of context, but I've reworded it. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 04:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the Tennōzu Mansion, Saiga frees Kagura escapes." - Is this missing an "and"?
  • What are "Euphorics"?
  • Why does he "reflect[...] the shot off of a piece of glass"?
  • The second paragraph could use a bit of prose optimization. (3 "also" in 4 sentences is a bad sign.)
    • I'm working on the second paragraph, but I will probably need someone else to look at it. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 04:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The single sentences look odd, but its better organized this way. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 21:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The "goddess" kisses him, however, and Suitengu orders Saiga's death." - Why not "The "goddess" kisses him and Suitengu orders Saiga's death"? What is the relation of the kiss and the order to kill?
    • Clarified. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 04:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • "The "goddess" kisses him, interrupting the ceremony so Suitengu orders Saiga's death." - This is still not clear enough. -- Goodraise (talk) 10:22, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Expanded in ep1. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 21:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I still don't see the relation between the order to kill and the kiss. -- Goodraise (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • It's not immediately clear in the episode either. However, the viewer later learns that Kagura's kiss confers desired abilities, so Suitengu's initial reaction is to kill someone who has gained the powers without his permission. Not really sure how I could work this into the summary... ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • How can an emtpy lunch box make you ill?
    • Clarified. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 04:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • "After she arrives at school, Kagura falls ill from malnourishment because her mother has been giving her an empty bentō every day." - The problem isn't solved yet. I assume: She falls ill because her mother doesn't give her enough food. Giving her an empty bentou has another reason. Perhaps it is to hide that malnourishment from the teachers and fellow students? -- Goodraise (talk) 10:22, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Clarified in ep2. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 21:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I still don't see how "giving her an empty bentō every day" can cause malnourishment. How is mentioning the bentō adding anything to that paragraph? -- Goodraise (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • The only way the viewer can tell that Shinsen is malnourishment Kagura is through the empty boxes and the lack of lunch. Kagura doesn't ever eat lunch, it seems. The discovery that the bentō is empty is key to the viewer understanding her malnourishment. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is "goddess" sometimes quoted and sometimes not?
    • She's not really a goddess, so whenever I refer to her as such out of context (i.e. not mentioning the club). ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 04:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's not good. If she isn't really a goddess, then you need to explain what it means to be that club's "goddess". -- Goodraise (talk) 10:22, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Clarified in ep4. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 21:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I don't see it clarified there. Even if I did, explaining it somewhere later in the article isn't good enough. If you introduce a term from within the fictional world, you have to explain what it means on first usage. Just putting it in quotation marks doesn't solve the problem. -- Goodraise (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • It isn't explained in the first episode. She's called "goddess" throughout the episode, and no explanation is given. Would it be easier to drop the quotations altogether? ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is he already in jail at the beginning of the episode? If no reason for his being there is given, you could point that out to avoid making the reader think you (as the writer of the summary) are withholding information from them.
    • Nope. He's out taking photos of politicians at the start of the episode, so that doesn't fit either. The plot holes are of the episode itself. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to earn enough money to survive" - Perhaps change this to "for a living"?
  • "causing a strange reaction in his body" - How can you tell? What is it the viewer actually sees happening?
    • Well, he begins twitching and his body, especially the area around his eye, begins changing color, but it really doesn't seem important enough to mention. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are you at first withholding that the goddess is Kagura? Does her transformation change her so much that she is unrecognizable?
    • Kagura isn't introduced until the second episode, and her appearance as a goddess is significantly different from her normal appearance. Personally, I realized that she was the goddess purely by inferring (and by the fact that there really is only one female lead in this), but it isn't explicitly shown or stated until later. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When Kagura returns home, she discovers her mother having sex with her teacher in her room." - What does it matter in which room they're doing it?
  • "Suitengu makes Kagura fall asleep and return to her form as the Club's goddess." - How are these actions accomplished?
    • He whispers something that seems to cause her to fall asleep. Some kind of conditioning, I'd guess? Information added. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "his wounds oddly heal" - What is "odd" about his wounds healing?
    • I would find it odd if someone's wounds spontaneously closed up and healed. Changed "oddly" to "quickly". ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When he finally is able to pause to rest, he discovers that the camera has not changed: he has." - What makes him realize that?
    • I didn't find that to be important enough to mention, considering he just finds sticky fluids coming out of his hand onto the camera. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, Saiga unearths information about Suitengu and the Roppongi Club at the same time." - Is he unearthing information about those two at the same time or is he unearthing information at the same time as "Suitengu and his men discover the identity of Saiga and begin to track him down"? And how is the time he does it relevant in the first place?
    • At the same time as "Suitengu blah blah blah". Clarified. They plan to attack at the exact same time, so it seems coincidental that their timings match. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Under the billboard bearing Saiga's famed photo, Kagura and Saiga reunite." - What billboard bearing what famed photo of his? Perhaps you mean: "Under a billboard bearing a famed photo of Saiga's, Kagura and Saiga reunite."

Oppose, as I can't get past a single summary without finding these kinds of prose issues and I haven't even read past ep4. -- Goodraise (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't see why most of these points need to be clarified, barring the important ones, like Kagura's "goddess" status. I just restated what happened, but I'm really in no place to explain why, nor do I feel it is necessary in an episode summary. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: per the official TV Asahi site, this show was aired on Thursdays at 26:40, which rolls over to Friday 02:40; the Japanese airdates should be moved up one day. —tan³ tx 01:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does it really work that way? The current ref I have says otherwise. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 01:50, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, changed. That's odd and incredibly annoying. Changed. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR ( t • c ) 04:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is this something that can be changed on your previously promoted FLs? Check. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) The writing needs work, and I'm not even referring to grammar or conciseness. My main concern is that readers will find it hard to follow what is going on. Find someone who has never read the article. Ask them to look at the it and identify/fix the ambiguities.

  • "into both a manga and a light novel."
  • "Funimation released Speed Grapher to Region 1 as six DVD compilations" "as"-->in.
  • "box set containing "-->box set that contains
  • "The series aired between March 7 and August 15, 2008 for viewers in the United States." Understood.
  • The first summary needs reorganization. The writing isn't bad on the clause level, but the sequence of events is poorly presented and readers will be utterly confused. Here are some of the issues:
    • "Tatsumi Saiga, a former war photographer, has been photographing politicians to survive." Is there a reason why photographing politicians would enable him to survive? Many readers, including me, will take the "to survive" phrase literally. Is it supposed to be that way?
    • Then, all of a sudden, after background on Saiga, we have "Katsuya Shirogane, a dancer, breaks a girl's arm for being stiff." What?
      • You know, I blame this entirely on the fragmented nature of the episodes themselves. I will be needing a bit of time to fix this issue as I need to rethink the way these episodes are written. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 21:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even more confusing is what comes next: "A policewoman gets Saiga out of jail." When did he land in jail in the first place? Why?
      • I don't actually know. He is never seen being thrown in jail. A scene after the dancer, we see him in jail with no explanation, so I don't exactly know how to fix this. I gather that he was thrown in jail for taking pictures of a politician, but that's a bit WP:OR and I'd err on the side of caution here. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 21:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Saiga manages to make his way into the club while pursuing a Diet member. At the center of a ritual, he manages to photograph the club's "goddess." Logical punctuation, the quotation marks should be inside the period. The repetition of "manages to" is annoying, especially since it's not really necessary in either instance.
    • "furious at his club has been discovered" You mean "that", not "at".
    • "Suitengu, furious at his club has been discovered, orders that Saiga be captured and killed, but the "goddess" kisses him before Saiga is beheaded, causing a strange reaction in his body. " Don't leave readers hanging. What does happen to Saiga? Dabomb87 (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • This episode doesn't reveal his fate, but ends with him madly twitching... I can add what happens, but it's not in this episode at all. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 21:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In any event, I withdraw this nomination. This clearly needs more time and a few more eyes before it even has hope of passing. I need to spend some time and reframe this entire episode list, as the ideas and concepts behind the series are truly quite strange for those who have not watched it. Thanks for the comments, and apologies for the premature nomination. Further comments can either be dropped at my talk page or at the talk page of the list. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR (t • c) 19:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been withdrawn, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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