Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Olympic medalists in volleyball/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 21:55, 24 September 2010 [1].

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List of Olympic medalists in volleyball

List of Olympic medalists in volleyball (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured list candidates/List of Olympic medalists in volleyball/archive1

Nominator(s): Courcelles 15:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because; well, I'm actually kind of nervous about this nomination, mainly because after running it up to DYK, it often languished on the back burner while other projects came and went. There's a massive list of athletes here, a good many of whom we struggle to put two sentences together about. I've considered whether this should be two lists due to the page's size, over 65kb, but there's enough value in having all the athletes on one page to leave it as is, in my opinion. The images are all fairly recent, I spent a lot of time looking for free images of some of the older athletes both on Commons and through the Toolserver, but to mix my sport metaphors, consistently struck out. At any rate, this is already tl;dr, so enjoy. Courcelles 15:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 15:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Parutakupiu (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

*Comments: I noticed this exquisite piece of work today just before your nomination. I'm eager to support this once these easy-to-fix points are addressed. Parutakupiu (talk) 18:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC) "... at the first five Olympics..."; Done. "At the 1980 Moscow Olympics..." — Add a comma after "Olympics"; Done. "United States led boycott" — Isn't an hyphen supposed to appear between "United States" and "led"? Done. "...the Soviet Union and some of her allies..." — Is "her" the most appropriate pronoun? Oh, you're right, changed. "... for the 1972 Munich or the 1976 Montreal Games." — "or" or "and"? They missed both Games, right? They did miss both. Logically, either works, but I agree 'and' is clearer, so changed. "In the women's competition in Barcelona, the Unified Team won the silver medal., and Cuba won their first of three consecutive gold medals." — No need to mention Barcelona as you just finished the previous sentence with it. Doh. Should have seen that one. Fixed. Courcelles 19:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC) "A nation is permitted to enter..." — NOC is more correct; Done. I see to many "At the .... Summer Olympics..." in succession. Could you avoid this? Got rid of two of them by some rearrangement (1996 and 2000 were the ones that went away). Actually, the thing that bugs me is the "At the..." in successive sentences. But it's not this will obstruct my support. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC) "This tied the former Soviet Union's record..." — This matched? This equalled? Equalled works well. "There are two athletes with four medals each in volleyball." — Don't know why but this doesn't sound very "encyclopedic"... Maybe "Two athletes have each won four medals in volleyball.". Also, "Cuban player Ana Fernández has won four medals, three golds and one bronze,..."; It was the old "anything you have to do to avoid starting a sentence with a number" thing. Didn't work that well, did it? Fixed. "Five athletes have won three gold medals: four of them were members of the Cuban..." — Mind the semicolon replacemente with a colon; Done "... either sex..." — gender; Done "... with one medal of each color." — Mind the American English "color" to be consistent with "program"; Done the removals. Since all the dates and a couple of other things are Commonwealth style, changing program to programme was easier. Good call. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC) On some occasions you link an NOC to the team page at specific Games, while in others you don't. Be consistent; Only two were linked, and linking all countries would have make a blue mess, so I just unlinked those two. The links appear in the table anyway. Good call #2. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC) The caption on Lioubov Kılıç's image should not end with a period, whereas Heather Brown's should; Fixed Innocent question: anything against a ToC such as the one in List of Olympic medalists in luge? Stylistic choice, It saves some vertical space, but has to be manually maintained, and makes an already long/template heavy list 500 characters and a dozen templates longer. "Athletes who have won at least three total medals, at least one of which was a gold medal,...". Gone Thanks for the review! Courcelles 19:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Great list, great job! Parutakupiu (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
• Question: is there a good reason why the summary table stops at 3 medals? How many more are with two (at least one of which is gold)? It might be worth at least explicitly stating the number if not listing the names. Nergaal (talk) 18:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • There are lots more. The Soviet mens teams of the 60's and 70's didn't change much from Games to Games, and won five medals in five Olympics. The Brazilian mens teams of '04 and '08 were substantially identical. The women's side is the same situation with the Japanese and Soviet teams of the 60s-70s, and the Cubans of the 90's. I'm thinking of expanding it to everyone who has three medals, full stop, as that would only run the table to 27 entries. Probably the longest in any of these FL's, but not insanely long. Thoughts? Courcelles 18:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
    • This is now done; the table lists anyone who has three medals, regardless of colour. Like I said above, expanding it to those with just two would overwhelm the page. Courcelles 15:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
      • It's not quite what I had in mind. Essentially everybody cares more about gold than the total. Since it is medal leaders, I would really prefer having all the multiple medalists with at least one gold medal (i.e. the last should be 1 gold 1 bronze). Would that be too long? If yes, then count them and write after the table that there are "x with 1 gold and 1 silver", "y with 1 gold and 1 bronze", etc. And chop off the non-golden ones (but you could still write the number of multiple medalists without gold). Nergaal (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
        • Well, saying golds are more important than other colours is something we would have to debate- I would strongly disagree that two medals, one gold, is better than three silvers. The real problem is that what you're asking would have to be put together by counting (your edit seems to indicate this, even), which would be too far into original research for my tastes. Courcelles 22:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
          • The counting issue: when one says that US has 50 states, or EU has 27 members it does mean they counted them. I don't get it what is the problem saying "over 50 (or whatever number) have won two medals in volleyball". Nergaal (talk) 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
          • Just so everybody is happy (some would say a gold is more important than 2 bronze medals) I think the simplest would be to just leave out the triple medalists without a gold (i.e. like it was initially). That way there won't be a discussion that someone with 2 golds should be put above the ones with 2 bronze and a silver, and so on. All I wanted is to have a sentence before or after that table saying x more people won 3 medals and y more won at least 2. Nergaal (talk) 08:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. After actually going through the text in detail, I noticed that the first two paragraphs are about USSR and USA, with a very brief mention of China. Just to give an example The United States men's team did not compete in the three Olympics prior to 1984, as they failed to qualify for the 1972 Munich and the 1976 Montreal Games. This has almost nothing to do with being a medallist, while the likes of Japan, Poland, Yugoslavia get no mention. Seriously, please change the intro from appearing almost like a USA vs USSR issue to something that truly covers the medalists. Also, a very notable missing element is the fact that there is no summary on countries. Since Olympics are much about national pride, and especially since volleyball is a team sport, having a summary on the national performance makes very much sense. Nergaal (talk) 20:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

• I've added a table of NOC's who have won more than a single medal. What this reveals, though, is that while the lede does need to discuss Japan more (I'll work on that), the Soviet Union would be the medal leader if she and her successor entities were considered one entity (they are not; the USSR, the Unified Team, and the Russian Federation are three separate NOC's), and the United States is third. Brazil has the most medals, and more emphasis can be put on them, though most of their medals are in the newer beach game. But this lede is in chronological order, and the USSR was dominant until the Los Angeles Games, hence why it looks disproportionate in the first two paragraphs. Courcelles 01:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

• I am not sure why you would leave out the single-medal NOCs (at a quick glimpse there seem to be only about 5 of them). Also, since indoor and beach are so different, I think having a 3*4 table like here would be appropriate (a set of 4 for indoor, a set of 4 for beach, and another one for totals). I know I sound picky, but I am saying all of these because I do think these are notable issues. Nergaal (talk) 08:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

• I've edited the lede to mention a few other countries it didn't originally discuss. As to the table by NOC, actually there are ten more, not five. The 4 by 3 table is excessively large for normal-sized monitors, and expanding this table-either way- will require the use of sort templates, making a very slow page even slower for negligible benefit. What you are requesting would require adding another ~250 templates to this page to get the sorting to work properly, a feature of little value, not present in any similar lists, and in no way required by the FL criteria. Courcelles 00:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• Fine. I thought it would make sense but if it requires that much work for that little benefit then I am fine. I stroked down my oppose. Nergaal (talk) 21:07, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
• Please explain me how is The United States men's team did not compete in the three Olympics prior to 1984, as they failed to qualify for the 1972 Munich and the 1976 Montreal Games.[5] relevant to the text? The intro is now a bit on the long side; I would prefer have the text consolidated a bit. Nergaal (talk) 21:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• Removed that. It got put in when I was looking for a decent DYK hook, but it's not all that useful now that the lede is a good bit longer. Courcelles 21:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments Always a little nervous that the lead sentence could imply that volleyball is only played at the Olympics. Perhaps, "one of the sports" played at the Olympics? Done. You go into the Soviet Union medalling at the first five, and then onto China winning first women's gold, perhaps mention (before Soviet Union) who won the first men's gold, and then mention the Soviet Union's ongoing success? (reading on, it turns out the soviet men won the gold in the first edition, so maybe just make that clear?) Done. Actually, that first para is a bit of a factoid-festival with reasonably unrelated short sentences fired at me. Yeah, that first paragraph was too long. Did some rearranging avoiding of short sentences. Suggest linking Unified team in the lead. Done. "the IOC voted to add beach" instead of repeating IOC, could you say "the Committee"? Done. programme vs program - be consistent. Done. Big gap before the last para of the lead. Extra line break that came in somewhere removed. "Cuban player Ana Fernández has" no need for player here. Removed "while Soviet athlete Inna Ryskal has" ditto for athlete. Removed "later coached the Polish national team.[16]" clarify it was the men's team. Done. Sadatoshi Sugahara's article spells his name as Sadatoshi Sugawara. And the IOC database says Sadatoshi Sugahara. Kimberley Ruddins seems to be missing an E from her first name (according to the redirect, but then not according to the intro!) The IOC database gives her name as Kimberly Grace Ruddins. Our article might be at the wrong title. A number of the Chinese women's names redirect, any reason why you're not using the Wikipedia names? I would dare hazard a guess you're using the IOC names per registration for the Games? If so, perhaps a note to that effect would be useful? Yeah, I'll add a note. Though I have to wonder where we got some of our article names from. Cuban Aguero seems to be missing diacritic (but then again, if you're sourcing your names from somewhere else...) Done. Kely Fraga->Kelly Fraga (etc) Covered by the note. You merge sexes in the Medal leaders table. Perhaps worth identifying M/F? Done Any reason why two general references appear (to the reader) to be identical? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:08, 9 September 2010 (UTC) Just the template we tend to use because the IOC rearranges their website frequently. I've clarified which link is which. Thanks for the comments. Courcelles 18:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support – Looks fine to me. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The list, in my opinion, fully satisfies FL criteria. Ruslik_Zero 16:57, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.