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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Oklahoma State Cowboys head football coaches/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 23:16, 26 January 2010 [1].

List of Oklahoma State Cowboys head football coaches edit

Nominator(s): —NMajdan•talk 20:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it now meets all the criteria.—NMajdan•talk 20:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I didn't see anything in the article about OSU's former name and moniker. When most of the people listed in the article were head coach, they were coaching the Oklahoma A&M Aggies. This sentence: The team has had 22 head coaches since organized football began in 1901 with the nickname Cowboys. makes it sound like the team has been the Cowboys since its inception in 1901. For almost 25 years, the team was exclusively the Aggies and for almost the same length of time, the team was called both the Aggies and Cowboys. NThomas (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great suggestion. I didn't even think of that. I will add a little bit about the previous school name and nickname.—NMajdan•talk 13:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The changes look great. Good work. NThomas (talk) 05:34, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Lead is a little short for our "finest work". I would like more information on the coaches rather than just the bare stats which I can see in the table. There must be something richer we can bring the lead.
    • I modeled this list after List of Oklahoma Sooners head football coaches which passed FLC recently (which you also reviewed). I'm not sure what else you're looking for.—NMajdan•talk
      • Whether I reviewed it or not is irrelevant. All I'm saying is that this lead seems to be a re-hash of the stats and absolutely nothing more. That's all. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Per WP:LEAD, the lead "serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article." Frankly, I do not see how the lead violates this. Expanding the lead may involve going beyond the scope of the article/list which is not the intention of the lead. For a list of this size, one healthy paragraph is enough to satisfy MoS requirements.—NMajdan•talk 19:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yes, I'm fully aware of WP:LEAD thanks, but you also need to attempt to write engaging prose. The lead is not engaging. Of course, that's just my opinion, but there you have it. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead image doesn't need a period.
  • For me, Term doesn't sort correctly.
    • How so? Looks fine to me. It sorts by the beginning year.—NMajdan•talk
      • Okay, so if I press the up/down arrow next to Term, I get the following results at the top: 1972, 1907–1908, 2005–present, 1906. So something's not working right for me. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall it just has that "slim" feel.

The Rambling Man (talk) 15:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • More specifics would be appreciated.—NMajdan•talk 15:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment - "The Cowboys have (plural) played in more than 1,000 games during its (single) 108 seasons" - needs fixing -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • There's one longish paragraph in the lead, and one very short one. This might well be contributing to the feeling above that the list is slim. If some content from the first paragraph is moved to the second paragraph, the balance would be better.
  • The lead could state what conference the Cowboys play in, and the conference(s) they used to be in. This is relevant to the list and should beef up the lead by a couple of sentences.
  • Most of the featured coach lists state in the lead who the team's first coach was. That could be added here as well.
  • Other featured coach lists give the actual statistics in the lead for things like winning percentage and win totals. Would be another useful addition here. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:25, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One more minor thing I saw: a comma should probably be inserted before "joining in 1915" in the second paragraph. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Did any of the coaches win a National Coach of the Year Award or a Conference Coach of the Year award. If so, I think that would be worth mentioning and/or integrating into the list. But that is just my opinion and if that is not needed, then the list looks good to me. Remember (talk) 15:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

None won any National coaching award. Don't know about Conference as those are usually hard to trace down.—NMajdan•talk 16:16, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It should be easy enough to find. Just look for a list of Conference Coach of the Year winners and look for OSU winners. According to this, Bob Simmons won in 1997. Just look for a source. Mm40 (talk) 23:16, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have you looked for a source for Simmons winning? I quickly found this, but I'd like a higher-quality source. Mm40 (talk) 03:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Simmons' award is mentioned here. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My support below is assuming you'll add this before promotion. Mm40 (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
NMajdan, please don't forget to resolve this issue. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is in regards to adding the Coach of the Year mention to coach Simmons, correct? If so, this is complete.—NMajdan•talk 03:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I'm not quite sure I want to support yet, I'll recheck at some point. Note that I've commented on a few issues below. Mm40 (talk) 03:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC) Support assuming you'll add the Conference Coach of the Yeah for Simmons. Also, you mix {{Citation}} and the {{cite x}} templates, such as {{cite news}} or {{cite web}}. One should be used throughout. Mm40 (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the coach of the year award. Also, I do not see any issue with mixing templates, so I disagree. You should not mix templates with plain text citations, but it should not matter which template you are using.—NMajdan•talk 15:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, cite XXX and citation use different citation styles, so mixing them creates inconsistencies, which we do not want. Anyway, I have fixed this. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't that then be resolved by the template designers? I think we're getting awfully picky if only certain templates can be used together. Nonetheless, thanks for your assistance.—NMajdan•talk 03:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The mysteries of the assorted citation templates are beyond me. The only thing that we care about at FA and FL, in terms of citation formatting, is consistency, and for whatever reason using citation and cite web/book/whatever together doesn't do that. I agree that we should do a better job of standardizing citation styles, but getting anything done in the realm of style of formatting is a huge time-waster. Cheers, Dabomb87 (talk) 03:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from Mm40 (talk)
Oppose for the moment from Mm40 (talk).
  • I do think the lead could be expanded. Did any of them go to OSU? Play in the NFL? Longest/shortest tenured? Mention that Waldorf is in the HoF.
    • I think NFL experience is irrelevant to this article. I also already have the longest tenured coach mentioned. I already mention Waldorf is in the HoF.—NMajdan•talk
      • I have added a sentence listing the coaches that graduated from the university.—NMajdan•talk 15:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead image doesn't need a period
  • No reference saying that organized football began in 1901.
  • Also, you might mention they played for 5 years without a coach
  • "postseason bowl games" should link somewhere
  • Maybe a note saying when bowl games started. Otherwise it may appear that the team was bad before 1939
    • Its a bit more complicated than that since the Rose Bowl began in 1916 and was the only bowl game until the 1930s. I think this is satisfied with the wikilink to bowl game in the lead.—NMajdan•talk
  • "of the Cowboys program with .250" it sounds odd having the sentence add with "250." Maybe reword to "Theodore Cox has a .250 winning percentage, the worst in team history"
  • The last two sentences of the lead both begin very similarly; change it up. Also, "Mike Gundy" should just be "Gundy" in the last sentence
    • Done. I still think leaving the full name is important since he is the current head coach and this sentence is pointing that out.—NMajdan•talk
  • Some images next to the table would be appreciated
  • The article has both "postseason" and "post-season"
  • A note should be added saying that "Conference" in the table means games against other teams in the conference
  • Waldorf's symbol should be superscript to reduce table clutter
  • Some coach tables have a totals bar on the bottom (see this, for example). It's not necessary, but it's nice
    • I don't think that is necessary on this list but would be more appropriate on an article listing the seasons.—NMajdan•talk
  • You may wish to add a hidden comment telling people not to update until the season's end
    • Done. And that reminded me that I had not updated this since the conclusion of the 2009 season, which has now been done.—NMajdan•talk
  • The second sentence of the first note can be removed as this hasn't happened yet.
  • The "conference" and "college football" links in notes 2 and 3 can be removed
  • The publisher of the first general reference is "Oklahoma State University"
  • "Oklahoma State University – Stillwater" is used in the first reference, but the Wikipedia article and this one has the dash unspaced
  • The AP is listed first in ref 2 and second in ref 4
    • This is a function of the cite templates. Both have The Associated Press listed as the agency and Ref 2 has NBC Sports as the publisher and Ref 4 has USA Today as the newspaper, so I guess that's just how they are sorted unless I am using the cite template incorrectly.—NMajdan•talk
  • What's that title at the end of ref 4 mean?
    • What title?—NMajdan•talk
      • I mean ref 5, what does this mean at the end: "Oklahoma State promoted offensive coordinator Mike Gundy to head coach Monday..." Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Its a specific quote from the source that backs up the fact it is being used for.—NMajdan•talk 15:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Usually direct quotes aren't used (see the first footnote on WP:V), but I suppose it doesn't hurt. Mm40 (talk) 03:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • For ref 5, the archival and retrieval dates should be two separate sentences per the other refs
    • Again, a function of the templates. If this needs to be uniform, it should be done at the template level.—NMajdan•talk
  • Add Category:College football lists. Mm40 (talk) 23:16, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done.—NMajdan•talk
    • I think I've either fixed or responded to most of your issues. There are a couple sourcing issues you pointed out so I will need a little time to hunt down sources for those. Thanks for your review.—NMajdan•talk 15:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • What sources were you referring to? Have they been found? Mm40 (talk) 03:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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