Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of NK Maribor seasons/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured list candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 21:11, 9 September 2011 [1].

List of NK Maribor seasons edit

List of NK Maribor seasons (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): Ratipok (talk) 23:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because... I believe this list complies with the Featured List criteria as well as possible. It comprehensively covers every season that NK Maribor has played in a major tournament, and is factually accurate. It is also useful to football fans. Ratipok (talk) 23:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - And how would you like it to be sourced? Every statistics on the table is sourced by NK Maribor official website (I have changed it now to NK Maribor official website - Statistics in case it wasnt visible before), which is added bellow both tables so there is no reason to think that the information is not geniuine as every single information in the tables are verifiable with this source. The tables are based on similar (format) lists of both Manchester Premier League clubs, which both have sources bellow and not in the tables, for every separate season and statistics. List of Manchester City F.C. even has a similar source "MCFCStats" bellow their stats.Ratipok (talk) 19:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Place the sources under the references header with a subheading General, have a look at List of Luton Town F.C. seasons to see what I mean. NapHit (talk) 20:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. In the near future there will also be a book published about history of the club and when that happens, I can add that as a general source as well (although the one used is reliable and covers every single season and match the club has played during their history).Ratipok (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Struck the oppose !vote, will assess more fully later..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:40, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 10:15, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Starting list with "This is a list of..." has not been in use for a long time this needs to be removed, have a look at recently promoted seasons lists to see how the list should be introduced.
  • The dash in the first image should be a en dash
  • The keys below the table are too small and probably fail WP:ACCESS. Move them to the top and make them normal size, have a look at the way its done in the List of Watford F.C. seasons list.
  • As the source for the tables is now in the reference section under the general subheading there is no need for it to be underneath the two tables as well.
  • Any references that are from news agencies such as the BBC Sport one should the cite news template instead of cite web
  • RSSF is actually RSSSF and I would spell out the acronym, same should be done with UEFA.
  • Ref 1 needs an en dash in the title
  • The retrieval date on the general should be in the same format as the other dates in the reference section.
  • I think you should use this Template:Football season start for the table instead of the one your using now, its used on the Watford list and imo makes the table look better and allows the reader to sort through the options
  • The current season should not be included until it is over

NapHit (talk) 14:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I have done most of the things requested except a change in the football table. A change is not a problem, but the fact, that if I put Template:Football season start and add info in it then the second cup still remains League Cup, while it should be Supercup, which is a totaly different thing. Is it even possible to change the name? Another thing is that I also dont know how to add a footnote next to the Supercup or Top scorer section in the new table template, as it is currently used. Thos two issues are the only problems. After looking into it I agree that the new table template would be better, with minor fixes mentioned above of course.Ratipok (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
according to the template page you can add a country parameter, so in this case it would the three letter code for Slovakia which would change the cup competitions to Slovakian ones. For the footnotes you could do what the Watford list does and put them in italics above the table which I think would be better. NapHit (talk) 18:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The country is Slovenia and I added SLO in the paragraph, but nothing happened. Maybe I missed something (have to check if SVN is the right one) and will look into it more closely tmr.Ratipok (talk) 14:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I've gone through the table and made some changes but it is a lot better now. Two things I would ask you to do though is try and bring down the number of redlinks and the two images in the lead need alt text, other than that I think you've done a great job, well done. NapHit (talk) 13:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Thank you. The redlinks will be fixed over time when articles about the club's season by season will be created (currently there are two) and when the same will be done with the lower leagues seasons of Yugoslavia (there is a task force working on that). Some of the footballers articles (the most important ones) will also be created.Ratipok (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from KV5
Oppose / Comments from KV5
  • "Slovene football club from Maribor, Slovenia" - redundant. Remove "Slovene".
  • Put abbreviations in parentheses instead of after dashes; example: "Football Association of Yugoslavia (FSJ)"
  • "was a part of it" - was a member thereof would be more professional
  • Un-link Slovenia at second link occurrence; it needs to be linked once only.
  • "It details the club's achievements in senior league and cup competitions, and the top scorers for each season." - what details this? I think you meant to say "This list details..."
  • "12 December, 1960" - dates are either December 12, 1960, or 12 December 1960, not a combination thereof
  • "the third tier of the Republic League within the Yugoslav football system" - from my understanding, the Republic League is the third tier of the FSJ. So a better re-word would be the Republic League, the third tier of the Yugoslav football system
  • "in the Yugoslav leagues" - comma after
  • "independence of Slovenia in 1991" - comma after
  • "five... 17... nine" - these are "comparable quantities" per MOS:NUM, change "five" and "nine" to 5 and 9, or "17" to seventeen (I prefer the latter but your choice)
  • "at the end of 1980s" - end of the 1980s
  • "and third division five times" - and the third division
  • "in 1967–68 season" - in the 1967–68 season
  • "Since 1991 and the independence of Slovenia" - you do not need to reference the independence again, once was enough. Simply Since 1991 will suffice.
  • "The first major success for the club was during their first season when they won the Slovenian Cup, a feat it has repeated six times to date" - your subject and verb aren't agreeing. Needs to be one of the following:
    • The first major success for the club was during its first season when it won the Slovenian Cup, a feat it has repeated six times to date (preferred since you have previously referred to the club as "it", not they)
    • The first major success for the club was during their first season when they won the Slovenian Cup, a feat they have repeated six times to date (in which case you need to change all references in the lead to "they")
  • "In addition, the club became Slovenian league champions nine times in 20 seasons and is by far the most successful club in the country" - re-word as follows for neutrality, style, and fluff: The club won the league championship 9 times in 20 seasons and is the most successful club in the country
  • "In 2009 the club also won the Slovenian Supercup" - to remove the bare year link and avoid confusion, re-word to The club also won the 2009 Slovenian Supercup
  • "the only domestic trophy that was missing among club's honours" - the only domestic trophy that was missing among the club's honours
  • "Since their inception in 1960" - subject/verb agreement; see above. If using preferred solution, this should be Since its inception in 1960
  • "25 times as part of the country's top division, 17 in second division and nine seasons in the third" - see below:
    • 25 seasons instead of "times"
    • as a member of instead of "as part of"
    • 17 in the second division
    • 9 seasons in the third
  • The tables definitely need to be reconstructed as sortable.
  • Tables do not comply with WP:ACCESS requirements; see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (accessibility)/Data tables tutorial for details on how to fix this. The tables need captions, row-headers, etc.
  • Bold text in the tables is a violation of MOS:BOLD; remove.
  • Colors are used in the table without symbols to convey information to color-blind readers; all colors need to be accompanied by an appropriate symbol (see List of Philadelphia Phillies seasons as an example).
  • Images need alternative text.
  • At the very least, all of the seasons in the "Div" column should be linked; if the articles don't exist yet, a redlink is fine as long as it points to the right place.
  • Table rows as a listed exception to WP:OVERLINK, so things like player names, trophy names, etc., should be linked at all appearances instead of first appearance.
  • Blank table cells need em-dashes.
  • In the "Footnotes", sentence fragments should not end with a period or full stop (example: "Player was top league goalscorer during the Slovenian PrvaLiga season" is a sentence fragment, not a complete sentence)

All in all a lot of work remaining to be done. — KV5 • Talk • 20:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments from KV5
  • The symbols used are not ACCESS-compliant. Replace the dagger and double-dagger with the {{dagger}} and {{double-dagger}} templates (the symbols redirect there, so you can just put in the braces) and the corresponding alt text.
  • The 1960 and 1991 table rows shouldn't be in the table because they are historical events, not seasons; it also botches the sorting. You have covered all of this information in the lead. If you want the Yugoslav and Slovenian sections to be split, you can either have two tables under subheaders with the same format or put a footnote on the 1991-92 season noting that it was the team's first in the Slovenian league.
  • Table still needs a caption (don't forget a caption if you split into two tables).
  • Images still need alt text, per NapHit above. — KV5 • Talk • 11:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hope these comments help. — KV5 • Talk • 11:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have done everything you have asked for. Except this; Table still needs a caption, as I am not sure what exactly do you mean?Ratipok (talk) 18:26, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the caption for you. NapHit (talk)
  • Support — KV5 • Talk • 13:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:05, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – Noticed a few of the things KV5 pointed out like the bolding and symbol issues, so I'll refrain from re-listing them below. If there are any repeated comments, I'm sorry; I tried to weed them out, but the review above covers a lot of ground.
  • "and three in Inter-Republic League formed end of the 1980s". Feels like it's missing some connecting words. Try "and three in the Inter-Republic League formed at the end of the 1980s" for a fix.
  • "The first major success for the club was during its first season when it won the Slovenian Cup". This refers to their first season in the PrvaLiga, correct? If so, make that clearer here. Wouldn't want anyone to think it was their first overall season when it wasn't.
  • "The club won the league championship 9 times in 20 seasons...". Needs "has" before "won". Currently it doesn't sound like the running tally it serves as.
  • "In that time the club has spent 25 seasons as member of the country's top division". Should be "as a member" as KV5 says, but also a problem is "the country's top division". Maribor has been in multiple countries' leagues, after all. Try making it "as a member of a top division", unless there's a good way of re-phrasing it otherwise.
  • Footnote B: "due to a bribery scandal Ball (Zoga)." Would read better as "due to the Ball (Zoga) bribery scandal."
  • Footnote F: "however, the trophy itself was awarded to Newcastle United, a team that advanced farthest in UEFA competitions that season." "a" → "the", as in "Newcastle United, the team...".
  • Why is there no top scorer for 1981–82?
  • Reference 3 shouldn't be in all capital letters. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:32, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Answer (Giants2008): I have fixed reference 3. The reason why there isnt any top scorer for the 1981–82 season is because the data is incomplete. The club is missing match stats from one round of that season, where Maribor scored five goals. This is the only one missing among hundreds the club has played during their history. I cant do anything about that either than to put a note in there about incomplete data. I hadnt had much time during the weekend (work), but I am confident that I will resolve the table issue within couple of days (thank you all for your patience;).Ratipok (talk) 01:40, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (KV5&Giants2008): OK, thank you. I have changed most of the issues that KV5 expressed, I still have to do some things with the table though. I will also look into the comments from Giants2008, however, I will adress everything during the weekend as I dont have the time to do it today.Ratipok (talk) 14:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I have already changed most of the things that were adressed here, except the table section. I am working on that and will change it asap.Ratipok (talk) 17:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I believe that I have sorted out everything that was adressed here and I think I have finished the article. Please look into it and let me know if there are any problems to be solved and fixed/edited. Thank you, Ratipok (talk) 03:48, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Emphasise "is an _association_ football club" for our US readers.
  • No point in abbreviating to FSJ if you don't use it anyway.
  • Personal choice, but if you have a line like "This list details the club's achievements in senior league and cup competitions, and the top scorers for each season." I'd have it last in the lead, just before the list itself.
  • "Since 1991, the team has competed in the Slovenian PrvaLiga, the highest level of football in the country.[4] Maribor was one of the..." new para so "Since 1991, Maribor has.. The team was one..."
  • "The club has won the league championship 9 times in 20 seasons.." nine, twenty.
  • "inception in 1960" you've already told us the club was founded in 1960, no need to repeat.
  • Key would be better if it could be compressed both horizontal and vertically (four cols is often too wide for some viewers).
  • Pos doesn't sort correctly (8 sorts "below" 18th)
  • Not clear how "Result" sorts at all.
  • "Slovenian Republic League, the highest " - "The Slovenian..."
  • Notes A, B and E appear to be missing references.
  • "During the 1974–75 season" season of which competition?
  • "The cup edition was skipped " reads far too colloquially for me.
  • "if any of the two players" -> "if either of the players"
  • No need to link Slovenia in note E.
  • No need to re-abbreviate NZS in note E.

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Done almost everything. Still a few issues: - #7 I am not sure on what is required from me to do with it? ; - #13 any thoughts on which word would sound more formal then "skipped"? About #9: the "Result" section doesnt sort out anything. However, I am not sure (I tried) if its possible to remove the sorting from that section (it seems it comes with the whole template).Ratipok (talk) 20:02, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First off, make the key no more than three columns wide. Then try to spread the text out horizontally so it doesn't take up too much space. Wording, replace skipped with "The cup edition was not played" or something like that. Try using class="unsortable" in the column heading. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I have asked the author of the Template:Football season start for help. Maybe the guy who created it knows if its possible to make the "Result" culumn unsortable and I am waiting for response..Ratipok (talk) 22:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The alternative is to force the sorting in that column using {{sort}}. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was thinking the same. I am going to sleep now:) and I will see if the creator of the template will give me an answer. If not, then I will sort it out myself tmr.Ratipok (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Have a look at the table I made in Liverpool F.C. in Europe the result column uses the sort feature so you could borrow that. Plus you have QR in the table yet its not explained in the key that needs to be added. NapHit (talk) 23:28, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The two culumns ("Other" and "Result") has been made unsortable by the creator, on my request. I think this is the best way, since I realized that even if I sorted the result section manualy a problem would present itself. On several occasions the team played in more then one UEFA cup during the course of a single seasons and would therefore be impossible to sort both competitions. (I added the QR in the key).Ratipok (talk) 11:51, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Comment: "The club also won the 2009 Slovenian Supercup, the only domestic trophy missing among the club's honours" If they won the trophy, why would it be missing? This sentence has me baffled, though that could just be me remembering the last sentence in the previous paragraph. Perhaps make it clearer in the para that they've won all the Slovenian awards at some point if that's the case. The only other issue I have is the number of redlinks, but that's not an FLC issue; writing articles on a couple of the major scorers likely wouldn't hurt though. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "the last domestic trophy missing". --Sporti (talk) 05:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Most of redlinks isnt a problem. I am certain that somewhere in the future Mladen Krajnc (top scorer in every season during the Yugoslav First League), Branko Horjak (all time top scorer and also head coach) and most likely Igor Poznič (couple of times the club's top scorer + Slovenia international) will all have their own articles created (12 redlinks).Ratipok (talk) 15:06, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_list_candidates/List_of_NK_Maribor_seasons/archive1&oldid=1143879438"