Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Willie Irvine/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:53, 7 August 2010 [1].

Willie Irvine edit

Featured article candidates/Willie Irvine/archive1

Nominator(s): Big Dom 21:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A talented footballer whose fall from grace was as swift as his rise to fame. He came from a poor background in a small village, but became a Northern Ireland international before he even made his professional debut. The top goalscorer in England during the 1965–66 season, a succession of injuries curtailed his career and forced his retirement from the professional game at the age of 29. I feel that the article meets the FA criteria; it has undergone a copyedit by Malleus Faturoum to iron out some of the grammatical errors. Happy reviewing! Big Dom 21:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and before anyone brings it up, the nifootball.blogspot.com website has been determined to be a reliable source, per this discussion. Big Dom 10:43, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments "1973–1974 Great Harwood ? (?)" isn't really acceptable without annotation, if no records were kept add that, if they were ... more research is required. International/Honours section, did he participate in the winning team of the 1964 British Home Championship?. The infobox is generally Metric(Imperial) for non-US articles. Fasach Nua (talk) 21:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look at the article. I am almost certain that no records were kept for the Northern Premier League, escpecially in the 1970s when the League was almost fully amateur, so I will add a note shortly. Also, Irvine didn't feature in the 1964 Home Championship. The infobox is generally Imperial (Metric) for UK articles as well as US articles. Metric measurements are very rarely used in the United Kingdom; height is still measured in feet and inches, weight is still measured in stones and pounds, distances are measured in miles. Big Dom 08:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up: From discussion at WT:FOOTY it seems pretty clear that imperial measurements are the most commonly used. Have added a note about the Great Harwood appearances. Big Dom 19:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 05:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: Page ranges should be prefaced by "pp." not "p.". Otherwise, sources look OK. The discussion about nifootball is noted. Brianboulton (talk) 15:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Big Dom 15:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The majority of the article should not be based on an autobiog, as these are invariably self-serving YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm aware, nowhere on Wikipedia does it say that autobiographies cannot be used as a reference. And the book in question certainly isn't "self-serving"; there is such a thing as humility, you know. Big Dom 06:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:SELFPUB, whether it is self-serving or not, such a source shouldn't form the primary basis for an article (see point 5). That's for articles generally. I think there is good reason to be even stricter for a FA candidate. But I'm willing to listen to views before expressing an oppose here.--Mkativerata (talk) 06:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But it isn't self-published? It was published by SportsBooks Limited. Anyway, it appears that Irvine himself did not actually write the book, it was written by Dave Thomas. I will go through the article, changing all instances of "Irvine; Thomas" to "Thomas". Problem solved. Big Dom 06:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heaps good then. But autobiographies are primary sources even if they are published by another printing house, and everyone that I've read has been self-serving YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I had to butt in again, as it is a ghost-written autobiography, ie the guy was paid to write from Irvine's viewpoint and it isn't a third-party work. I should have checked more carefully. This is the same as a press release written by a political staffer being independent of the political party. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some prose comments:
- "On matchdays at Turf Moor, he also gives guided tours of the ground to supporters". "also" seems superfluous.
  - Removed. Big Dom 07:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "He later worked as a window cleaner, which he did for 12 months before selling the round for a profit." Can we do without ", which he did"?
  - Removed. Big Dom 07:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "After turning down the potential transfers to West Ham and Torquay": "the" is problematic because only West Ham is mentioned in the previous paragraph.
  - Removed "the". Big Dom 07:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "However, he was then dropped from the team, no longer Saward's first choice upfront." I think a verb is needed somewhere after the second comma.
  - Not sure how to fix this one, it reads OK to me. Do you have any ideas? BigDom 07:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Have reworded the sentence. Big Dom 12:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "died after being involved in a motorcycle accident in 1944": depending on what the source says, can we say "died in a motorcycle accident"?
  - Removed the "in 1944", it must have been in 1944 if Irvine was 11 months old. Big Dom 07:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "eleven months old": should be "11" for consistency as the article goes with numbers above 10 (eg age of "14").
  - Changed. Big Dom 07:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers--Mkativerata (talk) 06:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for having a look. Big Dom 07:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I'm satisfied from the explanation given on my talk page [2] that this is not in fact a self-published source. The line between biography and autobiography can be quite blurry and it seems this much closer to the former than the later. I don't think the content of the article that relies on the source suffers from being self-serving either.--Mkativerata (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Support~~ a nice read.Please use "DD Month YYYY" format, it makes it easier and is slightly supported by the MoS. Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest FLC} 17:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Struck sup per yellowmonkey Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest FLC} 16:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, what is the source that "Thomas, Dave (2005). Willie Irvine: Together Again. Cheltenham: SportsBooks." is written by Dave Thomas and not Irvine? Is there a OR issue? Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest FLC} 17:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support. I thought I had used the "DD Month YYYY" format; are there any examples where this is different? The sources for the book being written by Dave Thomas are the link further up the page and the book itself, which states that the writing was done by Thomas. Cheers, Big Dom 17:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

DD Month YYYY - your refs are in another format
It would appear that Mr Thomas was the ghost-writer. If that is the case, it does seem like OR to attribute the book entirely to him. I think a note is warranted, and perhaps re-instate Irvine as author, as that is what google/amazon/libraries has. Also, a ghostwriter is somewhat less critical than a non-ghost, due to the relationship with his client. Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest FLC} 08:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have re-formatted the references. The other editors above had no problem with Thomas being listed as the author, and I listed Thomas as the author as he did the writing; Irvine provided a brief outline of the story (memoirs, etc.) Big Dom 08:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

In the lead, I thought having "out of the team" appear in consecutive sentences was concerning. I'd expect an FA to have a little more variety in terms of phrasing, especially in the most visible section of any article, the intro.
Burnley: Doubt that multiple Blackburn Rovers links are needed in a single paragraph. Football League First Division and Lausanne Sports also have two links in this section. In addition, Arsenal was just linked in the last section. This is something worth paying attention to throughout.
"He ended his poor run of form with hat-trick...". Missing "a", perhaps?
Preston North End: In a similar issue to one seen before, the Ipswich link is a repeat of one in the previous section. Same thing happens in Later career with Halifax Town. I know it sounds minor, but you don't need that much blue. There are more than enough links that are needed as is.
Later career: Again, multiple links of something in a section, this time Rochdale.
In the references, the order of the books should probably be reversed to be in alphabetical order. Chances are this was left untouched after previous changes. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All fixed, cheers for taking the time to review the article. Big Dom 07:21, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There's clearly no chance of this passing, so I would be grateful if one of the FAC delegates could close this nomination please. Big Dom 17:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.