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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/William Hely/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

William Hely edit

William Hely (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 17:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my first brand-new bio in a year... Like Charles Eaton (at TFA not long ago) Hely first made a name for himself locating lost travellers in the Australian desert. His subsequent career largely paralleled those of his ex-Duntroon stablemates such as Fred Scherger, Val Hancock, Alister Murdoch, Ian McLachlan and Allan Walters. It was unusual however in that Hely never held squadron or base command, and remained in one post, Air Member for Personnel, for a whopping six years. This has recently passed GAN and MilHist A-Class reviews; tks in advance for your comments. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. - Dank (push to talk) 00:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tks Dan. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Why include dates as part of Gillison short cite but not Odgers?
    • No reason whatsoever -- missed it... ;-)
  • Can you justify the use of Helson's thesis per WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
    • I assume you mean the Masters, Nikki -- it's publicly available on the university web and is by the same guy who wrote the PhD thesis I use (and have used in numerous RAAF bios) and who's now a published author as well; I'd also say that it constitutes a significant work of scholarship in the field as I'm not aware of any other in-depth study of the North Western Area Campaign (other Australian MilHist editors like Nick-D or Hawkeye might like to weigh in here)...
  • FN4: page formatting. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm used to the introductory pages with Roman numerals being presented without a "p." but I don't mind either way. Tks for review! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support with comments - this is interesting, and well-written. A few comments, mostly minor:

  • "In addition to the four graduates the Air Force had enrolled in 1927, budgetary constraints imposed during the Great Depression necessitated the transfer from Duntroon to Point Cook of eight other RAAF-sponsored cadets midway through their four-year course, including Alister Murdoch, Bill Garing and Douglas Candy.[3]" > I had a hard time parsing this on the first go. Maybe recast or simplify a bit?
    • What if I used a semi-colon (or full stop if preferable) after "four-year course" and then added "among these were Alister Murdoch, Bill Garing and Douglas Candy" or some such? Hely's fellow Duntroon grads (and undergrads!) figure prominently in his story and as they're also notable in WP terms so I figured I may as well mention them at the top... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, agree they need to be mentioned. Thinking about this. What about beginning with "budgetary contraints" and flipping the first clause to the end so the sentence doesn't begin with "In addition"? Not sure if that's an improvement. Will sleep on it. Victoria (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Ian I tried this (self-reverted now), bringing the transfer toward the beginning of the sentence. This is a minor quibble though, so no worries if you don't like it. Victoria (talk) 13:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 29 November 1938, he married secretary Jean McDonald at St Aidan's Anglican Church in Launceston, Tasmania; the couple had two daughters. Hely spent the following year in Britain, attending the Royal Air Force Staff College, Andover, and was promoted to squadron leader in September.[1]" > seems a bit rushed, marriage, two daughters and he's off to Britain. Maybe space out a little more.
    • Heh, that's the military for you -- I'm not sure how I could space it out but happy to take suggestions...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's funny! But it says he left the year after his marriage - were both daughters born then? I suppose if he married early in the year and left for Britain late the next year, then with almost 24 months to work with, so to speak, it's possible, but he married in November, so the second daughter would have been born later, I'd think. How about mentioning that they married, had a child, he left, and on his return they had a second daughter. If the sources support of course. It's not a big deal, and as you say, that's the military. Victoria (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sorry, it didn't click that you were questioning that the expression could imply the kids were born before the next posting, my bad. Since the source doesn't inlcude their birth dates, I just mention the kids in the same breath as the marriage. My preferred way to express it is "; the couple would have two daughters" but some reviewers don't like "would have"... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think "would have" is your only choice here and I don't mind it. Of course someone else might come in and say something about it! Victoria (talk) 13:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In October, he joined the Deputy Chief of the Air Staff, Air Vice Marshal Bill Bostock, as a delegate to a defence conference in Singapore, where the Australian contingent found the local forces ill-prepared for an attack by the Japanese and recommended significant increases in air capability, both in Australia and the Pacific Islands, to meet the threat" > another sentence I had a bit a tough time parsing on the first go, might be okay to split it.
  • "targets of opportunity" > I'm curious about this and wondered if it can be clarified? enemy planes? ships?
  • "Along with Hely, all officers associated with the proposal's examination were former Duntroon students, including the Deputy Chief of the Air Staff, Air Commodore Frank Bladin, the Director of Postings, Group Captain Murdoch, and the Director of Training, Group Captain Paddy Heffernan; another Duntroon graduate, Air Commodore Hancock, became the college's first commandant.[31]" > another sentence hard to parse, but I can't see a way around this one.
    • Again, felt it was worthwhile highlighting the involvement of these Duntroon guys, who played such a big part in the history of the RAAF (I have an article on them as a group simmering away, t'will see the light of day eventually I guess!) -- I don't mind a full stop before mentioning Hancock if you think that'd help the reader pause for breath... ;-)
      • Agree, it should be mentioned but is a mouthful. Would it work with a colon separated with semi-colons as a list: "Along with Hely, all officers associated with the proposal's examination were former Duntroon students: the Deputy Chief of the Air Staff, Air Commodore Frank Bladin; the Director of Postings, Group Captain Murdoch; and the Director of Training, Group Captain Paddy Heffernan; another Duntroon graduate, Air Commodore Hancock, became the college's first commandant.[31]" ?? Not sure about it. Victoria (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • After thinking about this (and re-reading), I think the full stop works best. For breathing, as it were. Victoria (talk) 13:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just one other question: I realize he was a career pilot (if that's the right word) but there's very little about where he lived, family, etc., except the mention of marriage, and that he retired to Canberra. Did someone like that typically live on a base with his family? I'm not at all sure whether any of these questions are relevant or actionable, but as I was reading through, I wondered about the wife and girls.
    • Unfortunately little apart from what I've said is ever mentioned about how/where people lived or the family members, unless the latter were notable in their own right or had some bigger-than-average involvement with the military (e.g. going into one of the women's services during the war). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, didn't think so, but thought I'd mention. Victoria (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add: I checked the images and all are in the public domain except the one at the bottom, but it has a FUR.

That's all from me. Victoria (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many tks for your review, Victoria. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • You're welcome. All minor quibbles, and an interesting read. Victoria (talk) 13:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Peacemaker67 (send... over) 13:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • his date of death in the infobox varies from the body (and ADB which both say 20 May 1970)?
    • Well spotted, sah -- especially after it escaped notice in every previous review... ;-)
  • ADB says his graduation from Pt. Cook was "distinguished", not sure what that means, but it probably should be included?
    • Mmm, in all the RAAF bios I've written I've never seen a "distinguished" (or for that matter an "undistinguished") pass at FTS mentioned in the sources, and not even the official history of the pre-war Air Force mentions such grades, so I thought perhaps leave well enough alone...
  • There is one overlink of AFC in the lead.
    • The usual thing in military bios I've seen is to link both the post-nom initials and the full award name. Not so important perhaps for the militarily minded but I'd have thought for the uninitiated it made sense...
  • "He was also closely involved in deliberations concerning the balance of academic and military studies at the RAAF Academy (previously RAAF College), the outcome of which is considered to have left the course biased towards pure science, rather than its applications to air power" this begs the question "what has been the assessment of later generations" Surely there has been analysis of Hely's impact in this respect?
    • Well the suggestion of bias towards pure science rather than its broader applications to air power is from relatively recent publications, so I'd say it is the view of later generations -- this is what I meant by "is considered to have" but happy to look at rewording if you think it could be expressed differently.
  • the guns at Duntroon were fired". What guns, and why, and how did they hear them at Reid? Just questions, doesn't seem right to me.
    • Article didn't say specifically which guns, or that they could be heard at Reid, just that they fired in tribute at that time.
  • re: refs, WP:ISBN says "Please use the 13-digit one if available". I am aware that some reviewers say that only applies to post-1978 (or something), but WP:ISBN does not say that.
    • I'll check where I can about 13-digit vs. 10-digit.
      • Only two had a 13-digit ISBN -- changed. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise I'm done, looking very good.

Images - All look sound. Graham Colm (talk) 15:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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