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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Uroš Drenović/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 25 September 2021 [1].

Uroš Drenović edit

Nominator(s): Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) and Peacemaker67 (talk)

Drenović (pronounced Drenovich) was a Bosnian Serb Chetnik leader during World War II. He started off as part of the general rebellion against the extreme nationalist Ustaše and their genocidal policies against the Serbs, but soon turned against the Communist-led Yugoslav Partisans who wanted to fight the Axis occupiers. He despised Muslims and Croats, and as a Chetnik he collaborated with first the Ustaše, then the Italians and the Germans. Aged 33, he was killed in an Allied bombing raid on Banja Luka in May 1944. Despite his extensive collaboration with the Axis Powers during the war, a street in Banja Luka is named after him, and within the Serb entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republika Srpska, the actions of his Chetniks are celebrated and equated with those of the Partisans. AB and I have worked on several successful FACs before, one of our previous efforts being Kragujevac massacre. This article passed GAN in 2015 and Milhist ACR in January this year. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:06, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Pass. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't use fixed px size
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:19, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Order_of_the_Karađorđe's_Star_with_Swords_rib.png needs tagging and details for the original design.
Deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Nikkimaria, if I cropped it in to the grave only, and given the grave and gravestone is simple and lacks originality, an utilitarian work rather than an architectural one, I suspect it would be ok. Thoughts?
The gravestone has a portrait on it - any idea what the status of that would be? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria. It is drawn from a photograph taken during the war. If I found a publication prior to 1966 (under Yugo copyright) would that help, or would the gravestone be a new version? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:58, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It would depend whether it is purely a copy, or whether it's just derived from the original. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Seems too problematic. I have replaced it with a different file. See what you think Nikkimaria? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:19, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just to verify, this is believed to meet the requirement of an official text "disclosed for the purpose of officially informing the public"? Nikkimaria (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely Nikkimaria. Proceedings of the NOR was huge series of official histories issued by the government to inform the public about the war. This document was published in that series to inform the public about Drenović's collaboration. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF edit

I'll try to look at this over the coming week. Hog Farm Talk 03:40, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm finding myself a bit confused by the relationship between the various groups in the Bosanska Krajina uprising sections. The Ustase and the Axis worked together, and were opposed by the Partisans. But the role of the Chetniks is unclear - it reads like they were integral parts of the Partisans in places, but also at times outside of the Partisan organization. My guess is that the Partisans were anti Ustase/Axis, while the Chetniks were simply pro-Serb, but it wouldn't hurt to try to clarify this.
  • The Chetniks essentially fought alongside the Partisans for most of 1941, but started fighting against them from late 1941 on, and in doing so, they began collaborating with the Axis and their local proxies (the Ustase). I've condensed much of the second and third paragraphs. Please let me know if it's any less confusing. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it makes a lot more sense. I think "A Serbian nationalist with anti-Muslim and anti-Croat views, Drenović eventually betrayed the Partisans and sided with the royalist, Serbian nationalist Chetniks, whose ideology more closely aligned with his own." helps a lot
  • That's good to hear. I always say if folks unacquainted with the subject find something overly confusing, then we haven't done a very good job explaining it. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 01:41, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In recent years, the ceremony has not been attended by any officials of the Republika Srpska entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina" - I feel like this needs as "as of" date to indicate what exactly "recent years" means. (the two sources are from '14 and '17)
  • You bring up a really good point. RS officials may not have attended when those particular articles were published, but what's to say they haven't done so in recent years? I'll leave this to my co-nom, though I will note that the sources used to cite this particular sentence don't meet my personal standards of reliability. But to each their own. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Have specified the years. I think it is worth pointing out that RS authorities haven't been wholeheartedly onboard in some past years. I have tried to locate sources for other years, but no dice. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the ceremony has not been attended by any officials of the Republika Srpska entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina" - I queried about the significance of this in the ACR. I still feel like it might be useful to briefly state the significance of this in the text, as to people like me who aren't super familiar with the politics of this area, the significance isn't obvious
  • The subject of this article collaborated with German forces during the war and yet has annual memorial ceremonies to commemorate him on the anniversary of his death. This is why its significant. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we get a translation for the title of Trikić, Savo; Repajić, Dušan (1982) like is done for the other non-English works?
  • "As of 2019 a street in Banja Luka was named after Drenović, and his actions and those of his Chetniks are celebrated in the official history of World War II used within Republika Srpska. Schools in Republika Srpska teach that the Chetniks were on the same anti-fascist footing as the Partisans, despite the Chetniks' extensive collaboration with the Axis during World War II" - This is more of a query than an actual comment - is this news source good for views of historical events? Just asking, as I'd be loathe to cite a number of the major US news sources for American Civil War stuff.
  • Good point, especially since this is an opinion piece. I can replace it with a straightforward news article by the Serbo-Croatian branch of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, which mostly says the same things. Is US state-backed media OK in your book? I personally don't have any issues with it. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll trust your judgment on this - you know more about what is potentially problematic sourcing-wise and what is likely fine for this subject than I do.
  • Done.

That's it from me. Good work; anticipate supporting. Hog Farm Talk 04:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Hog Farm. I hope I've addressed some of your concerns. If you could go into more detail regarding your confusion over the lead, that would be great. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I anticipate supporting once I see what PM has to say about the ceremony attendance bit and the sources there. Hog Farm Talk 01:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for taking the time to do the review. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 01:41, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your review, Hog Farm. I have responded to the outstanding query. See what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Hog Farm Talk 02:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Chidgk1 edit

Consider adding a sound file with the pronunciation of his name

I have to say I could not understand by just reading the lead without clicking links or reading on. I think because 1) I did not know the word "Ustaše", 2) "uprising against the NDH" confused me as NDH had earlier been defined as a place. So would it make sense to say "the puppet state known as the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), led by the fascist Ustaše" and "uprising against the Ustaše"?

  • (Additional comment)

Additionally, if you liked these comments, please add a comment or 2 here Chidgk1 (talk) 15:43, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Chidgk1! I have reworded that part of the lead along the lines you suggested. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:09, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Iazyges edit

Bosanska Krajina uprising
  • In an area where the KPJ did not have a strong presence, but which was under the sway of the sectarian Serb elite of Mrkonjić Grad, Drenović arrested Muslim communists, even confronting senior members of the Partisan leadership in the Bosanska Krajina suggest Mrkonjić Grad did not have a strong presence of the KPJ, but was under the sway of sectarian Serb elite, allowing Drenović to arrest Muslim communists, even confronting senior members of the Partisan leadership in the Bosanska Krajina.
Alliance with the NDH
  • His was the only Chetnik band that the Ustaše trusted fully during the war. Drenović was a Chetnik vojvoda (warlord). this seems awkward, perhaps Drenović was a Chetnik vojvoda (warlord), and his Chetnik band was the only one that the Ustaše trusted fully during the war.
  • That is all of my suggestions. A neat article. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 10:40, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking a look, Iazyges. Both done. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:06, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Pass. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:10, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

  • Source for Cyrillic name?
Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:16, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • How are you ordering News? Books?
Books fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:20, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
News fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:24, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is "G-2 (PB) "
G-2 was the designation for the intelligence branch of the headquarters. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Christia: is the location given correct?
No, not sure what happened there. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, also publisher was not right for some reason. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Nikkimaria. See what you think of my edits. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Z1720 edit

Non-expert prose review.

  • "After initially distinguishing himself in resisting the Ustaše alongside communist-led rebels," Not sure if initially is necessary, could be removed as redundant.
Fair enough, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Soon after the German-led invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941, largely spontaneous uprisings began to occur throughout the newly created Axis puppet state, the Independent State of Croatia (Serbo-Croatian: Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH),[7] which was governed by the fascist Ustaše." Two thoughts are in this sentence that should be broken up: one is the uprisings, and the other is the creation of the NDH. Perhaps, "After their invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941, the Germans created a puppet state called the Independent State of Croatia (Serbo-Croatian: Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH), governed by the fascist Ustaše. Shortly after its creation, largely spontaneous uprisings occurred throughout the state, caused by the genocidal policies implemented by the Ustaše against Serbs, Jews and Romani people."
Reworded as suggested. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:29, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 29 May 1944, Drenović was killed in an Allied bombing raid on Banja Luka,[41] and his grave is at the Serbian Orthodox Church of Klisina in Stričići outside Banja Luka.[2]" I think these are two separate thoughts and should get their own sentences.
Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:12, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2014 and 2017, the ceremony was not attended by any officials of the Republika Srpska entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina." Why not? Why is this important to note? Expand upon it in the article.
This has been raised several times, and I concede that it isn't that useful. Deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm surprised at how short the legacy section is. My impression of the article is that this is a controversial historical figure due to his changing allegiances. Is there more information about his legacy in other parts of the nations formerly part of Yugoslavia? Any opinions on what his legacy should be? (As a hero, a villain, a traitor, or something else?)
It is complicated. He is remembered mainly in the Republika Srpska entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina, although their view of him is based on a pretty selective reading. Clearly he saved Bosnian Serb lives in the initial uprising against the Ustaše, but this reputation was tarnished by his collaboration. This is the case with quite a few Chetnik leaders. Perhaps there would have been more written about him if he had lived longer and had been captured and tried after the war. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Drenovic's complicated legacy is not conveyed in the death and legacy part of the article at the moment. Instead, the article gives me the impression that he is generally well-received today as a celebrated figure. Some sentences about his complicated legacy might be helpful. Are there high-quality sources that speak about this? I conducted a search, but many sources are in foreign languages so I am unsure if they speak about that subject. Z1720 (talk) 23:20, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my thoughts. Z1720 (talk) 00:31, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, Z1720. I've expanded on what the Helsinki Committee says about this phenomenon. See what you think of my additions/tweaks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:24, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I did a copyedit for phrasing. Z1720 (talk) 02:48, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking a look, Z1720. Let me know what you think of my responses and edits. It is always good to have non-Milhist eyes on FACs covered by the project. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns have been addressed. I now support. Z1720 (talk) 02:48, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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