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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tropical Storm Hernan (2020)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 7 January 2024 [1].

Tropical Storm Hernan (2020) edit

Nominator(s): JayTee⛈️ 22:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... Tropical Storm Hernan, a small and short-lived tropical cyclone that originally was not expected to have significant impacts on land. Yet, it defied forecasts and caused immense flooding and significant damage across much of southwestern Mexico in late August 2020 as it passed closely offshore. This storm is a textbook example of how small tropical cyclones can still pack a powerful punch. JayTee⛈️ 22:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hurricane Noah edit

Lead
  • "40 miles per hour (65 km/h) simply make it 'low-end tropical storm' which conveys the same meaning without numbers.
  • "achieved peak intensity" achieved 'its' peak intensity
  • "6:00 UTC" 06:00
  • Link to maximum sustained winds somewhere in the lead.
  • "The low moved near the Baja California Peninsula" I don't like this wording... maybe 'the low neared the southern edge of...'?
  • 11 inches (280 mm) - Abbreviate please
  • "with accumulation peaking" - pluralize accumulation
Meteorological history
  • "6:00 UTC" 06:00
  • "340 miles (545 km)" Abbreviate
  • "However, the United States" I would say United States-based
  • Link wind shear in met
  • Link Ocean gyre
  • Link maximum sustained winds and atmospheric pressure in met
  • Convection duplicate link
Preparations and impact
  • Link tropical cyclone warnings and watches
  • "MXN$594.045 million pesos (US$26.9 million)" Sigfigs should be the same here
  • " including 115 minors" Why is this important?
  • "13 feet (4.0 m)" abbreviate
  • Link Parota
  • "A young man" This is vague. Young is in the eye of the beholder.
  • "Winds gusts" Wind singular
  • Link sea turtle
  • "Minor rainfall, gusty winds, and large waves spread across the coast of Baja California Sur even as Hernan weakened and dissipated just offshore." I dont think this detail is needed since that's normal and nothing resulted from it.
  • Manzanillo duplicate link
  • Tomatlán duplicate link
  • Nayarit duplicate link
  • It's also frowned upon to start sentences with numbers in numerical format so I would avoid doing so if possible.
Here are some comments to get you started. Noah, AATalk 16:05, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All of the above comments have been addressed. JayTee⛈️ 21:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 45 miles per hour - please abbreviate here
  • "1,674 homes and nine schools" Since there is a numerical form for homes, schools should also be in numerical.
  • "At least 630 houses and nine schools" Ditto
That should be it.
Noah, AATalk 02:26, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. JayTee⛈️ 16:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support since my issues have been resolved. Noah, AATalk 01:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source Review edit

Will be doing this later but for now note (which I discovered during the text review):

  • Link to TCR is missing
  • Check NOAA sources and please make sure your text isn't too close to the source.
Addressed. JayTee⛈️ 21:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • in the wake of Hurricane Genevieve - Could you reword this since it is similar to the TCR text?
  • Discussion 1 link is messed up (appears to be NHC's fault). If you are sourcing discussion 1, change the link to discussion 2's link since they put the text for discussion 1 there.
  • For NHC refs, either include middle initials for all (also II in the case of John Beven) or none
  • FN7: What makes this a high-quality, reliable source? I couldn't find a staff page or editorial oversight.
Ended up removing as it didn't contribute to article much and was a stub of a source. JayTee⛈️ 23:35, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto FN31
I did some research and found out Lopez-Doriga was actually founded by a man of the same name and it appears to have a decent reputation in Mexico. Its founder is a respected TV show host that is disliked by the Mexican government for its criticism of it, but its in the cohorts of other respected news sources. JayTee⛈️ 23:35, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That only makes mention of Lopez-Doriga himself in passing and doesn't establish that the organization itself performs high-quality news reporting. Noah, AATalk 00:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just don't necessarily think the source or its founder (in lieu of a mission statement) is unreliable or not of at least decent quality. And it adds valuable information to the Guerrero section. JayTee⛈️ 05:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that we have to establish reliability. We can't go on gut feeling. FAs have to be top-notch in everything which is why I was very stringent in going over the sources. Sometimes this would mean deleting information from an article because the source's reliability can't be accurately assessed. Noah, AATalk 14:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I really can't establish the reputability of this source so I will be removing. JayTee⛈️ 15:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN10: What makes this a high-quality, reliable source?
I wouldn't call it high-quality, but it has good impact info and passes a quick ScamAdvisor check. JayTee⛈️ 23:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have to be able to prove that it's reputable and high-quality. If you are certain it isn't high-quality than it probably should be removed. Noah, AATalk 00:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be honest I don't think it's a high-quality source. I'll remove it and see what information from it is already covered by other sources and can be salvaged. JayTee⛈️ 04:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link El Universal (Mexico City)
  • Link Uno TV
  • El Universal is a newspaper, not a work
  • Link to El Informador (México) on Spanish WP
  • El Informador (México) is a newspaper, not a work
  • Should be listed as El Informador instead of just Informador
  • Link to Meganoticias on Spanish WP
  • Link to Comisión Nacional del Agua on Spanish WP for Conagua
  • Link to Proceso (revista) on Spanish WP
  • Proceso is a newspaper
  • Link Milenio
  • Milenio is a newspaper
  • El Sol de Acapulco is a newspaper
  • FN34: What makes this a high-quality, reliable source?
Now goes by La 1, an old and reliable Spanish TV channel, will be fixing and linking. JayTee⛈️ 23:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN35: Author name missing
  • Be consistent in giving locations for news sources (either all or none)
Removed all since only a handful of sources provide them. JayTee⛈️ 00:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please replace quotations within titles with 'words in quotations here'
Do you mean the quotations in the ref names (i.e. "HTCR") or the quotations in the actual titles of the articles (i.e. tormenta tropical "Hernán")? JayTee⛈️ 00:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The latter. Noah, AATalk 00:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. JayTee⛈️ 04:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please add translated titles
1) How do I add them to the references? 2) Is there a certain website we can use to translate the titles? Google's translations are pretty subpar to say the least. JayTee⛈️ 00:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Use the parameter trans-title=. If I am being honest, unless you know someone who can help with translating, the best bet is to use a combination of Google translate and common sense. There’s probably someone who can help with translating somewhere, but I am not familiar. Noah, AATalk 00:13, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. JayTee⛈️ 04:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what I found. Spot checks haven't yet been done. Noah, AATalk 21:16, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What spot checks are referring too? JayTee⛈️ 23:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have to check about five references to make sure what you said in the article is supported by the source. Noah, AATalk 00:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Got it. Taken care of all other comments thus far. JayTee⛈️ 04:31, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is an El Universal and a Milenio that are still listed as work. FN3's link is still broken as well. Discussion 1 is actually located at [2] Noah, AATalk 14:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed all. JayTee⛈️ 15:59, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Hurricane Noah, is that a pass for the source review? Likewise for the spot check. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Noah, AATalk 16:38, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks edit

  • FN5: "The system was downgraded to a tropical depression at 12:00 UTC that day" This isn't supported by the discussion which is for 1500. Check others in the section to make sure it is supported by sourcing appropriately.
  • FN12: Statement is supported
  • FN20: "It was reported that at least 19,968 people were impacted and in need of support in the state following Hernan" This statement isn't supported
  • FN25: Statement is supported
  • FN31: Statement is supported
Let me know when you have fixed these. Noah, AATalk 14:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hurricane Noah All fixed. JayTee⛈️ 16:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't cite mid-sentence in the absence of a punctuation mark. You can have both citations at the end of a sentence. Otherwise, those are fixed. Since 2/5 revealed unsupported statements, I had to do a few more.
  • FN1: (Third citation): "Despite these unfavorable conditions, cloud tops south and west of Hernan's center cooled to between −117 and −123 °F (−83 and −86 °C) as its convection increased, allowing the cyclone to strengthen slightly." and "Continuous wind shear caused Hernan to weaken shortly thereafter, restricting convection to the southern and western portions of the storm's circulation." are not supported within the TCR. I'd ask you again to take a close at the met and what each source specifically supports. I'm convinced this really is the trouble area at this point since I didn't find anything else in the four additional spot checks I did. I will go over the entire met tomorrow night with a fine-tooth comb to make sure it is handled. Other than that, the other SR issues are resolved.
  • FN15 (Last citation): Statement supported
  • FN28: Statement supported
  • FN30: Statements supported; You do only need to cite at the end of the last sentence rather than citing it at the end of both consecutive sentences.
  • FN33: Statement supported

I did five additional spot checks.Noah, AATalk 02:16, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Hurricane Noah Taken care of all. I added discussions 5 and 6 from the NHC advisory archive on Hernan to the met history as they support the claims above. JayTee⛈️ 16:16, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pass SR. Noah, AATalk 01:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support! JayTee⛈️ 02:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Hurricanehink edit

I did a review of the article before FAC, and thought it was in pretty good shape. I'll leave the only comment I had from two years ago, which is the main reason I can't support at the time.

It could use a damage total, and clarification on the missing person. Having a news story about a missing person around the time of the storm doesn't mean the person actually died, or is still missing. That's the biggest thing missing IMO.

Support. So I'm glad the article now has the damage total. But as for the missing person, it's like one last thread to the narrative that isn't complete. For what it's worth, the Spanish Wikipedia article for the 2020 PHS season doesn't list any deaths. Neither does the WMO report. So I'm not a fan of the current wording saying "though their whereabouts were never discovered." The current sourcing doesn't back that up, and I'd rather the wording be accurate than make assumptions. Further, I don't see where ref 19 cites the information described. It's pretty minor, but I'd rather you make sure you get the wording right rather than just removing it. Even if you change the wording to something like, "there were initial reports of a missing person," then it's still accurate, without having to speculate. This was my only qualm with the article, otherwise I stand by that the article is is in good shape. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Hurricanehink I think the death is well-sourced and seeing as it mentioned in the NHC's TCR on the storm I strongly feel it should be included. The Spanish WP is mostly a copy-paste of this article and may have missed the death. I can re-word the article to more accurately reflect FN19 and I agree that the statement "there were initial reports of a missing person" should be added as there were no further reports of this beyond that article. Seeing these issues addressed would you feel comfortable supporting the article? JayTee⛈️ 19:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The TCR death is in Jalisco, which I'm not talking, I'm referring to the missing person in Guerrero. My beef is the original research putting in "though their whereabouts were never discovered." Hence why I suggested the wording of "there were initial reports of a missing person", since that person could well have been accounted for. See any big natural disaster where the death toll can fluctuate, particularly with missing people. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I understand better now. I re-worded the OR sentence. I believe the FN19 issue is addressed as well as it supports the information in the sentences that precede it in the Jalisco and Guerrero subsections. JayTee⛈️ 18:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to support now. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild edit

Recusing to review.

  • Note a comes after "ninth named storm". Do you really mean that one of the nine named storms was in fact unnamed?
  • "Hernan was hindered by a high wind shear environment". Per MOS:NOFORCELINK - "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links" - a brief in line explanation would be helpful.
  • "it dropped over 11 in (280 mm)". Inches in full at first mention.
  • "Recovery efforts were carried out by Mexican Armed Forces members and municipal governments". You mix the employees of organisations and just the organisations themselves in this sentence. Is there a reason?
  • References: article titles in English should all be in title case, regardless of how they appear in the original publication. Similarly, words in all caps ("FONDEN y FOEDEN") should be in lower case (apart from their initial letters).
I'm a little confused about this. Are just the English translations of the articles supposed to be in title case or both the Spanish and English titles? Also, FONDEN and FOEDEN are acronyms of government organizations- this would be the equivalent of changing NOAA to Noaa or NASA to Nasa. JayTee⛈️ 23:08, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just those in English, eg cites 13 and 20. "FONDEN y FOEDEN": oops, you're right, I'm wrong. Apologies.
  • "... developed three separate areas of low pressure. One of the lows developed on August 21 ..." Is it possible to avoid the use of "developed" twice in 12 words?
  • "initially struggling to organize its convective activity". "struggling" seems to imply volition, perhaps a different word or phrase?
  • "After developing a closed surface circulation". This seems to be a specialist phrase. Is it possible to express the event in a way which would make sense to a non-expert reader?
  • "about 340 mi (545 km) southwest of". Miles in full at first mention.
  • "the United States-based National Hurricane Center (NHC) operationally did not recognize the system as having". "operationally", either delete or explain more fully what is meant by it.
  • "the system was facing strong easterly wind shear". MOS:NOFORCELINK as mentioned above.
  • "while different agencies traveled by helicopter" → 'while workers from different agencies traveled by helicopter'.
  • "Mexico's Secretariat of the Navy, José Rafael Ojeda Durán". Durán held the position of Mexico's Secretary of the Navy, the Secretariat of the Navy is the name the ministry he managed.
  • What is a unit of machinery?
  • "damages from Hernan totaled MXN$594.05 million pesos (US$26.91 million) across affected areas from August 24-27". Delete "across affected areas", I think that can be assumed. "from" should be 'during'. "August 24-27", replace the hyphen with an en dash. (Or the word 'to'.)
  • See also: there are too many articles listed. The last four in particular seem only tangentially connected.
  • Why does "Damage Assessment Committee" have upper case initial letters?
It is capitalized in the source provided. JayTee⛈️ 23:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The MoS takes precedence. See MOS:CAPS. I don't think it's a proper noun and so doubt that it should have initial caps on Wikipedia. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rainfall in Jalisco peaked at ..." Assuming that the quantities following are for a given time period, could it be stated.
  • "At least 630 houses and 9 schools experienced severe damage throughout the state." By "throughout", do you mean 'in'?
  • "5 federal highways" → 'five federal highways' per MOS:SPELL09.
  • "severely flooded streets. Severe flooding of streets". Could one of these be tweaked to avoid the near repetition.
  • "he fell from his roof checking damages from Hernan." Should "damages" be singular?
  • "the 7 aforementioned municipalities." 'seven'.
  • "Food pantries, mats, hygiene kits, and liters of water". Delete 'liters of'.
  • "The Mexican federal legislature requested that the Comisión Nacional del Agua (National Water Commission) carry out studies and take further preventative actions to address the lack of storm-resilient infrastructure in Jalisco to help protect residents of its coastal municipalities from future tropical cyclone impacts." This sentence is trying to do a lot of work. I suggest breaking it at some point.
  • "Waves of up to 13 ft (4.0 m)". Feet in full at first mention.
  • Given MOS:UNITS, why does the article not use metric measurements as its base units?
The US-based National Hurricane Center provides nearly all of the date on EPac storms, and our article follow suit and base measurements using the imperial system (this is reflected in other FA EPac storm articles, i.e. Hurricane Patricia, Hurricane Willa, and perhaps most importantly, the meteorologically-similar Tropical Storm Vicente (2018). JayTee⛈️ 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am reading that as meaning that the article does not have "strong ties to the United States" and so the units should be metric. What has happened in other Wikipedia articles is not relevant. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:41, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can flip all the metric and imperial conversions in the lead and Preps/impacts section. Should I do this for the Met history and infobox too? Asking because all of their sources come from the NHC. JayTee⛈️ 23:54, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That all sounds sensible. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:55, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A parota tree blocked off a road in the town of Tamala". Delete "off".
  • "Torrential rainfall fell across the area" → 'Torrential rain fell across the area'.
  • The source says (Google translate) 'that a large part of the ... area' ... 'suffered serious effects'. I feel that your paraphrase of this - that vast portions of both urban and rural areas around Manzanillo suffered serious damage unduly exaggerates the amount and seriousness of the damage.
  • "in conjunction with the Intertropical Convergence Zone". What does this mean, and why is it significant?
  • "or several days in late August, causing at least 12 in (300 mm) of rainfall". Is it possible to be more precise with regards to the period?
  • "after being dragged into an overflowing river." Dragged by who or what? (Perhaps use 'washed'?)
  • "In the state of Michoacán, where disruptions and flash flooding were reported as well, up to 600,000 sea turtle eggs in Ixtapilla Marine Turtle Sanctuary were swept away or destroyed by Hernan, including those of the threatened Olive Ridley turtle, making for a large environmental loss." I suggest breaking "where disruptions and flash flooding were reported as well" of as a separate sentence.
  • I don't see the phrase "intense punctual rains" in the source given. What are "punctual" rains anyway?
  • "The state of Sinaloa reported "intense punctual rains", and flooding, hail, minor mudslides, and debris were reported in southern coastal areas". Do we need "reported" twice in one sentence? Indeed, throughout the article do we need to keep saying that things were reported? Why not simply state that they happened?
  • "A mudslide occurred behind a populated neighborhood". I am not sure about "behind". Perhaps 'near'?

That's it for a first run through. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild I've addressed all concerns above. I flipped the conversions on everything to be metric first except the infobox as I can't quite workout how to do so. JayTee⛈️ 17:28, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by by Wehwalt edit

Gog the Mild asked me to look in, on my talk. Really, I'm only looking at prose.

  • Barometric pressure in the lead is still English measurements first.
  • "Passing just offshore the state of Jalisco," Shouldn't there be an "of" in there?
  • "a couple hours later" this seems both rather informal and also wouldn't there be an "of" in there?
  • "more well-defined" Maybe "better-defined"?
  • There's a fair number of parentheticals breaking the prose. Maybe the longer ones could be made into footnotes?
  • Apazulco could probably use a link. There are probably other relatively small municipalities that go unlinked for reasons I'm not clear about.
  • "Resources from both the federal government's Fondo Nacional de Desastres Naturales (National Fund for Natural Disasters) and Jalisco's Fondo Estatal de Desastres Naturales (State Fund for Natural Disasters) was given to the seven aforementioned municipalities. " I think it should be ... were given ..." The subject of the sentence is plural (resources).
  • "The Mexican federal legislature requested that the Comisión Nacional del Agua (National Water Commission) carry out studies and take further preventative actions to address the lack of storm-resilient infrastructure in Jalisco. The study was intended to help protect residents of its coastal municipalities from future tropical cyclone impacts.[25]" Possibly "storm-resilient" should be "storm-resistant". Isn't the final sentence rather obvious? Does it add anything?
  • "Sand and debris were stirred up throughout Manzanillo as Hernan passed offshore." How precisely are sand and debris stirred up?
  • " mostly due to the overflowing of rivers across Zihuatanejo, La Unión, Coahuayutla, San Jerónimo, Coyuca de Benítez and Petatlán, with over 100 houses experiencing damage in the latter city.[14]" "across" implies an area. These are non-contiguous cities so I don't understand the "across". You might say "Across New Jersey and Pennsylvania" but you wouldn't say "across Trenton and Pittsburgh", you'd more likely say "in". And "latter" should be "last".
  • "Secretariat Ojeda Durán" He's the Secretary of the Navy. Why "Secretariat"?
I think the prose is sometimes a bit spotty but nothing too terrible given that the subject matter doesn't lend itself to deathless prose.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:21, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt All issues have been addressed. JayTee⛈️ 18:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give it another read in a day or so. Wehwalt (talk) 01:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose. Wehwalt (talk) 17:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the support and feedback. JayTee⛈️ 18:52, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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