Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The World Ends with You/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 20:31, 31 August 2008 [1].

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The World Ends with You

Nominator(s): MASEM

previous FAC (03:13, 22 July 2008)

Previous nomination needed some copyedits in order to bring it to FA standards though all other issues were resolved. Copyediting has been done in the interim so I am bringing this back for an FAC. --MASEM 18:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• The Famitsu ref should be citing the magazine itself, not a third-party website. --- RockMFR 16:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

  I've got the issue number in place now, though kept the third-party website for additional reference. --MASEM 17:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comments- ugh, I didn't even realize this was languishing in no-response hell, sorry. Post a notice on WT:VG and get some reviewers, Mase! Anyhow, some openers (can't do a thorough review, I'm heading off for college in a few hours and need some sleep:)
  • Images:
    • Image:The World Ends with You.jpg, low-res, yes, but lacks a hyperlink source and the fair use rationale is stingy. Beef dat' up!
    • Image:Hachiko200505-2.jpg- you need to check with Elco about this, but I'm somewhat sure the subject might run afoul of the Derivative work limitation on "free" images.
    • Image:Gameplay screen.PNG again, source of the images? Otherwise fair use rationale descriptive, has license.
    • Image:Shibuya tokyo.jpg- free image, has some logo/corporate but that shouldn't run afoul of NFC.
  • Content:
    • "After completing the game, the player can return to any day within the story and play through those events again, keeping the characters' current statistics and their inventory of pins, clothes, and other items. "Secret Reports"[clarify]..." - clarify and source this paragraph!
    • Generally I don't care about use of Japanese characters and pronunciations, and I'm fine with it in the lead, but the use for characters and for soundtracks starts interfering with readability.
    • (More to follow)
  • Sources/Refs:
    • Prove me the following authors/publications are reliable: Brian Ashcraft[2], Spencer[3], Ross Miller[4]
      • Deviantart refs: can we verify these guys?
    • Condense the gameplay citations with slashes between character lines instead of breaks.
    • I'm not really down with the single citations per paragraph thing going on here. The more citations, the clearer it is to the reader what is being cited.
    • (More to follow)

Reply to all this stuff below the block and not in-line, otherwise my limited cognitive capacity will be spent. More will come. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 03:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Images:

Some user has swapped the cover image with a different version, with a less stellar rationale. This has been fixed.

Commons discussion on derivative works states that images of permanently installed public sculptures in Japan can only be used in non-commercial purposes - that is, it seems to be fine for commons. This is NOT my picture, however, so I don't know what the image has gone through before.

Fixed the image of the gameplay to point to a source (it's a standard press image, so multiple sources exist -I just don't know where that came from (I didn't upload it).

• Content:

Expanded/refred secret reports.

Given that the game is first released in Japan and primarily revolves around the Japanese culture, I think getting rid of the Japanese names will be a problem.

• Sources

I can't necessarily substantiate the reliability of the sources, but I will point out that these references are being used for points that either have existing reliable sources, or non-controversial points. The first link (Kotaku) is basically an english translation of a reliable GameWatch article about the silver DS (GameWatch is a reliable but Japanese source). The second link (Siliconera) is basically a photo diary comparing pictures from Shibuya to the game - there's no other factual information being pulled from that. The third link (Joystiq) is the only one that I could argue a possible problem: Ross is a frequent contributor to Joystiq, and it is basically a statement from Squeenix about game shipments, as opposed to Ross' own research.

The officialness of the DeviantArt stuff is verifiable - this was part of an official contest between Squenix and DevArt.

Game quotes have been switched to slashes/

See the 4X FAC - sourcing every line can lead to problems with readibility. Sourcing needs to be used to hit any point of contention - most of where the 1 source-per-paragraph is used is gameplay that can be verified a number of ways (as compared to, say, sales numbers of the like). Now, its not that I can't add references (it's mostly gameplay), just that I don't believe it will help. --MASEM 04:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Kotaku Brian Ashcraft reference, it would be preferable to reference to the GameWatch article instead. As the article is online, readers can verify the original article themselves or with translation tools. WP:NONENG prefers to have translations by reliable sources. Jappalang (talk) 22:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

• If it "states that images of permanently installed public sculptures in Japan can only be used in non-commercial purposes", then the statue picture needs a fair use rationale or can't be used, as Non-Commercial clauses are incompatible with free use on Wikipedia. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 12:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

From the standpoint of the article, it's not 100% necessary to include the photo (if it is considered non-free), but there is the fact that there's several photos of the statue at commons, though best I can tell, no challenge to any specific image about being commons. I will explore this further but any additional input here would be helpful to make sure it's free or non-free. --MASEM 12:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

My concern stems from the fact that Wikipedia cannot have images licensed as non-commercial; I think Elco should go over this, I'll focus on the content now. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 20:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the image - I see very little doubt that the image is inappropriate for Commons, and thus should be treated non-free, and thus removed from this article. (By the same line of reasoning, the scramble crossing shot is ok per the allowance for buildings) --MASEM 23:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• • David Fuchs continuation I
    • "must complete assigned missions within a seven-day time limit, or be erased from existence" - um, what kind of assigned missions? If they're going to be erased from existence, that's some serious mortal peril, but other than that I don't get much grasp on the game.
    • "...was inspired by..." sounds clunky when you use the same diction and syntax two sentences in a row. Reword one.
    • "Stride Cross Battle System" in the lead; no need to swamp them with something that won't help them understand the game. Just make it battle system, you'll elaborate later on.
    • " is a continual week-long contest for the enjoyment of the Reapers" who are the Reapers?
    • Characters section seems a bit long... are all those characters important to understanding the plot?
    • "Beat saves Neku from erasure by making a pact with him but at a cost; he must give up his Reaper abilities and recover the Noise form of Rhyme from the week's Game Master or be erased." clunky sentence with the semicolon.
    • "or refuse and be shot down with Shibuya being erased as promised"- bad grammar
    • "...personality of Neku over the weeks of playing the game, decided to spare ..." I don't think the tense change of "decided" should be there.
  • Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
    • • User:Deckiller is doing some editors so I'll worry on the language aspects in a bit, but for the characters, all but 2 of the characters (the last two reapers) are described in the plot; the last two are more than minor in their presence in the game but don't really contribute to the plot. Int he previous FAC, it was suggested that the list of characters be moved here from a separate article (which would have all the associated issues of primary sources/notability/in-universe details) so it's sort of necessary to include this. --MASEM 23:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
      • Above text points have been addressed. --MASEM 04:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
  • David Fuchs continuation II
  • Ok Mas, I saw your plea and since I was having some trouble, I'll lay on you my issues about following the gameplay (story was kinda hard too, but I might not have been the most alert when I was reading, so I'll have to check back with you...)
    • "The World Ends with You uses common elements of console role-playing games but includes many additional features. The game is broken down into three chapters, following the three weeks that Neku is involved in the Reaper's Game, with each chapter further divided by each day of the week. The player controls Neku and his partner as they explore Shibuya to complete each day's mission. " - if you're not going to mention the additional features right off the bat, best to remove the redundancy/nebulousness and say "TWEWY features common elements of console RPGs". "Broken down" doesn't sound very professional, and is somewhat misleading as you're talking more about story arc then the game itself.
    • "The player can initiate combat by selecting from one to four Noise while scanning in order to start battle; selecting more than one Noise to fight initiates a chain battle, where each consecutive Noise becomes tougher, but also leads to better rewards such as more yen or more powerful "psych pins" if won. In some cases, black "Taboo" Noise may attack Neku if the scan is initiated. The player can alter the benefits earned from battle by changing both the difficulty of the Noise and the amount of hit points Neku and his partner have going into battle through the game's menus." - Let's keep it simple by reduction. Is knowing the number of Noise to battle important? Also, the pins mechanic isn't exactly clear (I'll get to in a minute.) Perhaps something more along the lines of (not it's bad grammar and just roughed) "Players initiate a battle sequence when choosing to fight Noise while scanning. Attacking more than one Noise at a time means that the battle is more difficult, but conversely leads to greater awards upon success. [Do we need info on Black Taboo Noise? Nothing is really done with it.] Altering the difficulty of the Noise and Neku and his partner have going into the battle also alters the benefits conferred."
    • Segregation: I feel that it's better to integrate 'pins' into the previous section, cutting down on some of the side information.
    • Battle:"The game's combat system is called the "Stride Cross Battle System""- if this is a quote, source it immediately after the sentence.
    • "The player uses the directional pad or face buttons to navigate through a pathway to select a card and to make a regular attack; if the card matches the face down card, the partner will make earn a star. " - just bad grammar here, can you spot it? :P
    • "The movement of the light puck is determined by the "sync ratio" between Neku and his partner, with the puck staying longer with one character with higher ratios, and equipment that causes the puck to move faster or slower between characters." also unclear what equipment does to affect the puck.
    • Overall, I think some condensation will aid comprehension (I had a similar issue with condensing Golden Sun's gameplay; perhaps looking through the diffs will give you inspiration on what and where to cut?)

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 01:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to work these into this. The only point I'm having problems with is the suggestion of putting the "pins" into the previous section. The problem here is that because of the circular nature of how the gameplay works out (pins help in battle; battles give you more pins, or pins help in minigames, minigames can help evolve pins) it's a chicken/egg problem. Any suggestions here would be useful. I also did try to condense info, but this is about as much that is necessary to highlight the major features identified by reviewers and what the game is known for. --MASEM 15:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose by User:Dweller

• "In the game's story, main character Neku Sakuraba and his allies are forced to participate in the "Reaper's Game" and must successfully complete missions given to them by the Reapers or be erased from existence." This is obscure. Either explain it better, use some wikilinks or simplify it greatly (my preference, given it's in the Lead)
• "The battle system uses several features of the Nintendo DS" Don't get it - what else would it do, given that it's a game on the Nintendo DS?
• "The Reapers' Game is a continual week-long contest for the enjoyment of a group of demonic beings known as the Reapers." Continual, as in it lasts for 7days*24hours without a break? "Contest for the enjoyment" is ambiguous and poor English whichever meaning it's intended to convey. I suspect you mean "contest, for the enjoyment" but really, it's still unclear - do you mean that the Reapers participate or are spectators?
• Article introduces "Players" after already discussing them (and doesn't explain if they are dead Reapers, humans or anything else for that matter)
• You mention above that the article has had a copyedit. Was this done by someone unfamiliar with the game?

I'm finding basic problems of comprehension. I therefore Oppose this FAC until it's had a (nother) third party copyedit by someone unfamiliar with the topic. --Dweller (talk) 13:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

On the above points I've fixed these; I note on the "Players" issue that basically, I mention "Players" one sentence before describing them (4th and 5th sentence of Setting, specifically). I don't think this "introduction" is too far away, and switching the text around to describe players first, puts too much text distance between "Reaper" and "Player". (I did address who Players are, however).

I did have someone that, best I could tell, had not been actively involved with the article to ce between first FAC and this, but that person was also a VG editor in general. I did try getting the help of someone completely outside of VG but that never materialized. At this point, specific cases where there are problems are more helpful than just asking for another CE. (The fact this is a game-in-a-game with similar terms as one would describe a normal VG makes it doubly difficult to ce right) --MASEM 13:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that your comments in the last sentence make the need for a third party non expert c-e all the clearer. You could approach some of the FAC regulars for help. I'd do it myself, but I'm up to my ears copyediting Keith Miller. --Dweller (talk) 14:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

These issues seem to be with comprehensiveness, not 1a; nevertheless, I agree. I found it quite difficult to copy-edit the first few paragraphs of the article, as the terminology is quite complex. More than one or two sets of eyes will be needed for this one. — Deckiller 18:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comments: Interesting read about an interesting game, I'm going to have to pick it up. After reading through the article, here are the issues which stood out to me.
  • Overall
    • The amount of fictional content seem rather long. I would try to trim it down some.
    • Some of the paragraphs are disproportionate in size. Not that big of an issue, more for aesthetics but also for reading flow.
  • Characters section
    • I've never been a fan of character lists, but that's just my personal preference for game articles.
    • Should the character names be in bold? I remember on similar articles with lists we had to remove it.
    • There is a good number of redundant/trivial detail in the character summaries. Some of which is repeated in the "Story" section. For example, does the reader need to know that Shiki's best friend was named Eri? Does knowing the Noise form of the Shinigamis add to the reader's general understanding of the topic?
    • I don't understand what this sentence means "He uses his cell phone and, later, beams of light from the sky to fight."
  • Story section
    • I'm sure the story is a confusing one, but I found the summary hard to follow. Specifically when going from the first paragraph to the second. I think the reason was because I didn't know Players had to pay the entry fee each week. That should probably be clarified in the "Setting" section.
    • Could the story be trimmed a bit?
  • Gameplay section
    • I would feel better about this section being trimmed down too. For instance, is the meme/reminding a mechanic an integral part of the gameplay, or more of a minor sidequest?
    • Is "Additional Day" an extra mode accessible from the main menu or something integrated into the second play through?
    • Trim down on some wordiness: "Neku's partner on the top screen can be controlled either by the player or game." instead of "Neku's partner on the top screen can be controlled by the player, though the player can opt to have this character controlled by the game."
    • The info about "synchronization during battle" seems like it should come before the descriptions about the top and botton screen battle systems. I think it would help give more context to the reader.
  • Reception section
    • Personally, I'm more of a fan of sales info being a part of the general reception and critical response being the subsection as the later is normally larger and more fitting for a subsection. Not a deal breaker though.
      • I would take the short, two-sentence paragraph and combine it with the sales to make an generic reception paragraph and then move the first paragraph into a subsection labeled "Critical response". Either way, I would do something the short paragraph, it seems unbalanced.
    • There is an excessive amount of review scores in the table. GamePro, Nintendo Power, IGN, and GameSpot all have the same score and this doesn't add much to the section. I would pick 7-8 of the scores that stand out the most.
  • References.
    • I would wikilink DeviantArt.
    • Is VG Chartz reliable? I know the VG Project has had back and forth discussions on it.

Overall, this is a good article that is close to FA quality. I would like to see some of the fictional content trimmed down and paragraphs balanced out. I'll check back in later. Keep up the good work. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC))

Struck my comments about the reception. I was bold and edited that section myself. Feel free to revert it though. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC))

Points by section:

• Characters

TTN suggested that instead of a separate character page (which currently exists) that it makes sense to bring that list to here. What you have here is a trimmed version, and what I feel (from my dealing with fiction) is appropriate for briefly covering the characters in the game (at least, the ones with voice work). A separate list would invite a lot of speculation and in-universe cruft, so I feel confident leaving that in there. Note that the story section has been trimmed such that the character details are not extraneous anymore. I took out the "character has X attack in the game" type language.

• Story

The fee is mentioned in the setting, however, this point may be moot as I've taken a carving knife and got the story down to its core elements getting to the endgame (where everything is pretty much explained) as fast as possible.

• Gameplay

Trimmed a bit. There's a lot of depth of the gameplay (part of what critics recognized) so much of it really can't be cut without losing meaning. But I did try to reduce text where possible and reorganized the combat section per suggestion

• Refs

Save for its first week, there are no other released NA numbers for the game beyond VGChartz. Yes, it's not the best source, but it is a source and to not include it (with some cavaet that it is VGC) seems to weaken the sales info. The numbers they have agree with the few data points from other sources. --MASEM 16:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The "Plot" and "Gameplay" sections look much better now. It is much easier to understand and read through. My only concerns now are the VG Chartz sources and a few content issues, both of which aren't deal breakers.

• VG Chartz: Personally, I don't think losing the info would really impact the overall level of information, but that's just me. Other reviewers haven't taken issue with this so I won't oppose.
• Content:
  • I would try to beef up the "Critical response" section a bit, there are plenty of reviews to draw from so I don't think this would be too hard. Also, the article ends on a very lengthy quote, could it be summarized?
  • The "Promotion" section seems rather small. I think it gives it undue weight. But at the same time, I don't see an obvious place to insert it in the "Development" section. Something to think about I guess.

The article is shaping up nicely. Keep up the good work. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 23:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC))

I took out the VGChartz links. I did move the promotion to the end of the main dev section (after the announcment of the releass - it feels fine there). The last quote is actually a reasonably summary of what most reviewers stated about the game, so it reasonably reflects the overall critical response. --MASEM 03:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support: My main concerns have been addressed. The article is well written, comprehensive, and well sourced. I think the critical response content can be beefed up some, but the current content properly conveys the game's critical reception, and that is no reason to oppose. Another good article Masem, and some excellent copy editing on the part of Deckiller and Jappalang. Keep up the good work guys. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 08:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC))
• The new version is definitely better, but I think someone should take another pass through the prose just to make sure. — Deckiller 14:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I did a quick sweep of some of the text. Hope it's an improvement. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:27, 24 August 2008 (UTC))

• Support; a sweep of the prose shows no significant issues, it looks pretty good. —Giggy 07:55, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

• Did Ealdgyth miss this article on sources? Has Dweller been pinged on his oppose? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Ealdgyth had reviewed the sources in the previous FAC for this - there has been no change to those since that point, so I don't know if there's a need for a recheck. I will ping Dweller to recheck this. --MASEM 21:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm pinged. I'm fairly bonkers IRL, but will find time to review. --Dweller (talk) 08:00, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Further comments from User:Dweller

I continue to find substantial problems with sense, referencing and use of English:

• "The main characters also interact with non-player characters, such as storekeepers and others in the Realground." I thought this was a single-player game? Surely all the characters are non-player characters, other than one (the "Player")?
  • See Non-player character for a bit of background. I've tried to clarify it a bit, tell me if it helps. —Giggy 08:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
• I don't think the "Help:Japanese" link needs to appear more than once in the entire article. Maybe twice at most.
• "Players are characters who have recently died in the Realground, and have come to the Underground to play the Repears' Game." Again, I thought this was a one-player game. Is it that you choose from one of these? Then again, I've read that you team up with another Player (presumably AI) to defeat Noise? Very confused.
• "Neku, the main playable character" What do you mean by "main"?
• Characters section mostly unreferenced and therefore comes across as OR, even if it isn't
• "psych pins" means nothing and the wikilink is actually unhelpful
• Yoshiya subsection is contradictory, saying he doesn't interact, yet does
• Characters section includes many spoilers that perhaps shouldn't be in this section for that reason. Put them in Story, where people would expect to find spoilers (and therefore avoid reading if they don't want spoilers)
• "She is the next highest Reaper after Kitaniji," =Highest-ranking? Or tallest? Also, no concept of Reaper ranking yet explained
• Yashiro parag is badly worded

More as I find em --Dweller (talk) 08:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• • Thanks to User:Jappalang, a full rewrite of the characters section has been done, which should clear up most of the issues above and removes excess content. (this probably needs a double check).
  • A key point of confusion (I'm well aware of this) is that the game uses the word "Player" for characters like Neku, while we at WP use "player" (case difference) for the person holding the DS. I have tried to reverify that in the plot and gameplay sections that "the Player" or "Players" refer to the characters, and "a player" or "the player" refers to the person holding the DS, and only twice have to venture to say "other players" (again, notice case) in the description of the multiplayer/wireless abilities. There are a few times, as pointed out above, that "Players" starts a sentence, and while the sentence can be reworded to put that word in the middle of the sentence, it either makes the sentence awkward to read or passive voice or the like; however, I would think from context it should be apparent, again sticking to the approach that a single player is the one controlling the game in describing these sections. --MASEM 13:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
    • A couple side notes, I'm much happier with the paragraph format of the "Characters" section. It shortens the length of the page and doesn't break the flow as much. Also with "Characters" being a subsection of "Plot", I don't think spoilers are an issue because plot suggests spoilers in the whole section. That and Wikipedia is not censored. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC))

I'll review. --Dweller (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Changes look good. Strange fonts in Soundtrack section showing on Firefox. --Dweller (talk) 09:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I get the same problems with FF3 for several Wp pages that uses some unicode, so I'm thinking this is more a bug in that browser. I will check into that but I don't think its the page doing it. --MASEM 11:40, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a browser bug. —Giggy 07:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.