Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Teen Idles/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 21:11, 3 December 2008 [1].

The Teen Idles edit

Nominator(s): CloudNine (talk)

An article I wrote about a fairly obscure (yet very important) D.C. hardcore punk band a while back, that I feel is comprehensive, well-written and easy-to-read. There's a lack of free images on the subject, but I feel the article reads well without them. Hopefully this candidacy will motivate me back into editing Wikipedia regularly. CloudNine (talk) 23:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I understand that this may not be a solvable problem, but I simply don't think this can be a featured article with no images. Does not fulfill Criteria 3 for that reason. Criteria 3 doesn't say anything about it being ok to not have images if none can be found after all. Cream147 Shout at me for doing wrong 01:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Problem dealt with, fair play to you. I won't give my support vote just yet though, I want to give it another lookover Cream147 Shout at me for doing wrong 06:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • But it doesn't say that a featured article should have images, which is the key thing here. I've read a number of featured articles that have none (because they either don't apply or there are no free ones). CloudNine (talk) 13:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • CloudNine is correct - images are not required for an article to become FA. Awadewit (talk) 14:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • But the criteria states that images should be used where appropriate, and images would most certainly be appropriate here. At least one in the infobox I would've thought Cream147 Shout at me for doing wrong 13:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • But I can't find any free images. You're welcome to try. "appropriate" here relies on actually finding images in the first place. CloudNine (talk) 13:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why not add some non-free images? There are several non-free images of The Teen Idles out there. Wikipedia allows non-free band images if the band is no longer active (i.e. it is not possible to create a free image of the band). Kaldari (talk) 17:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about some non-free images, but a non-free image would probably be acceptable. I think this image, credited to Lucian Perkins at the Dischord Records site[2], would be good. Calliopejen1 (talk) 03:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Used to have that image in the article, but it was removed by someone else because it didn't meet fair use requirements (I tend not to bother to find non-free images anymore as a result). CloudNine (talk) 17:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't let the image nazis discourage you. I've restored the image for now. Kaldari (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. On the picture issue, pictures are not a requirement, the criteria merely says "where appropriate". Ealdgyth - Talk 14:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please review the dab links in the tool box, and be aware of WP:ACCESS and WP:DASH. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I actually removed the only dab while you were presumably writing that (my mind-reading skills are still up to scratch). Any particular points I need to address w.r.t WP:ACCESS? CloudNine (talk) 17:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments — Some things I noticed at a brief glance:
  • The Teen Idles history began when Washingtonian Ian MacKaye discovered punk rock through a local college radio station, Georgetown University's WGTB. - "The Teen Idles history began" → "The Teen Idles began".
    • Technically the Teen Idles (as a band) didn't form then, but the history behind it began. Is there a better way of phrasing it?
  • The two became friends and quickly discovered their shared interest in punk. MacKaye and Nelson saw their first punk show in January 1979 — a benefit concert by The Cramps for WGTB. - Em dashes are unspaced.
    • Fixed.
  • The Slinkees then renamed themselves The Teen Idles. - Remove "then".
    • Fixed.
  • After about a dozen concerts, opening for bands such as the Untouchables, The Teen Idles decided to tour the West Coast in August 1980. - "A dozen" → "12.
    • Fixed.

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Hopefully I've addressed at least some of the issues. Thanks for the review. CloudNine (talk) 18:10, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose... Kaldari (talk) 22:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm a little concerned about several sentences from this article appearing verbatim on this blog. Did one source copy the other or are they both copied verbatim from another source?
    • No, the blog most definitely copied the Wikipedia article. The blog entry was "written" months after the Wikipedia article. Looks like a copyvio to me.
  • The lead mentions the band's influence on straight edge, but straight edge isn't even mentioned in the article body. A good source is Ross Haenfler's book Straight Edge which discusses the Teen Idles on pages 8 and 9.
    • It's not mentioned by name, but the trademark Xs are discussed in the paragraph describing the band's final gig. I'll see if I can work in more information (perhaps even a separate section). Do you have a copy of Straight Edge?
      • That's definitely an improvement. Were there any other ways that the band influenced Straight Edge besides the X's?
  • The article should mention the issue of the band's youth more prominently. The band and their fans were commonly dismissed as "teeny-punks" and had to struggle to be taken seriously. Take a look at the book Dance of Days for more info on this.
  • I'd like to see more books cited in the references. There are a lot more books than just Our Band Could Be Your Life that discuss the Teen Idles.
    • Good points. I'll try and pick up those books from somewhere. CloudNine (talk) 22:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • You can find Straight Edge and Dance of Days on Google Books if you need to. Also, it looks like some sources claim the band only earned $600 from touring instead of $700 as is stated in the article. You might want to double-check the figure and add a citation for that sentence specifically. Kaldari (talk) 22:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Support (as fanboy, alt rock project member, now a contributor and friend of the nominator). I think its a fine artice that can pass after a few bits and pieces are added. "All Ages" has a lenghtly interview with Mackaye (ever read a short interview with Mackaye?) and he mentions the band at a few points. He talks about the origions of the Straight Edge 'X', and its appearance on the Minor Disturbance EP. I could add a section on this, and that might give rational to use feature the EP artwork. I'm asking here first in case you might think it might be off-topic. The other thing is, yes as per above there are a lot of books out there on straight edge, and it might be an idea to get other perspectives. Small fixes needed here and there re prose, but nothing drastic - its quite well written. Ceoil sláinte 21:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks. I'm taking a while to read through some other sources (to be honest, I didn't know the Teen Idles appeared in several other books in detail). I'll let this FAC gain as much review as possible, and then try to address all the issues. CloudNine (talk) 12:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. Just say the word and I'll add the section. Ceoil sláinte 12:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, that would be great. I'm guessing it would be titled "Straight edge philisophy" or similar? CloudNine (talk) 12:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure; but almost they were the first straight edge band, and the article should be weighed in that direction. Ceoil sláinte 13:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I shoehorned it into the ablum section. Its mostly quotes, but I think relevant. Ceoil sláinte 14:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cheers for the addition. It's much appreciated, and it definitely improves the article. I think I'll investigate some other sources to see if I can add to it. CloudNine (talk) 19:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do the same. I'm inclined towards a support, but we'll see what can be dug up. Ceoil sláinte 19:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. The article looks quite nice but could do with a thorough copyedit. I gave the lead a quick one and will finish the rest of the page in the next couple days. NSR77 T 23:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Good work! NSR77 T 03:11, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. the lead mentions twice that the band were one of the first straight-edge and hardcore bands. Could you make the genre in the lead a little more general than "hardcore punk" (for those who are unfamiliar)? Punk rock maybe (the overarching genre)? indopug (talk) 15:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Reworded as "The Teen Idles were among the first punk groups from the early 1980s hardcore movement..." Ceoil (talk) 22:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I just don't feel like I really have a good understanding of this band. That may be because I know nothing about punk, or because they didn't do that much, or because there isn't more info to be found (or there is, but we haven't found it yet). Contrarily, there is some detail in the article that I feel is a bit irrelevant. If there are more books available that discuss the band, I highly recommend that you make use of them. Interlibrary loan can help, but it would likely mean withdrawing the FAC for now until the books come in.

  • Is it important that we know how MacKaye and Nelson met? I can see that having more relevance in their individual articles but don't see its relevance in this one.
Its important to punk historians - ;) - at least, as the birth of Fugazi, which is what we are really talking about here, and it encompases Teen Idols, Minor Threat, Rites of Spring and Embrace; all significant early hardcore bands, and has been mythologised to a degree that beggars belief, frankly. Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch for overlinking - for example, don't need to link WGTB twice in one paragraph.
Done. Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How old were MacKaye, Nelson, et al when they started playing in The Slinkees? Were they all in high school?
Would have been about 16, but I clarified as "teengaers". Ceoil (talk) 22:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After about local twelve concerts" - what?
Reworded. Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Teen Idles decided to tour the US West Coast during in August 1980" - decided on their own - no sponsor? Did they have gigs lined up or did they just show up at each city and try to find a spot to play? How difficult was it usually for this kind of tour without being on a label of any sort?
  • I still don't see any further details about the "tour". They were refused entry to one of the locations - did they actually have gigs lined up? Karanacs (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why were they hassled by police?
In the late 70s, US punks were routienly beaten up on the street by concerned members of the public, and because a number of them were also squatters, they were tarnished and seemed to have been espically targeted by The Man. Rollins has been very articulate about this, and a friend of the band, and hammered by dudes with mullets and moustashes a good few times; tring to find the copy of the autobio of his I know is somewhere in my attic.Ceoil (talk) 22:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is good background to have, and I think it should be included in the article for people like me who are unfamiliar with the history of punk. Karanacs (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "People were freaked out by how fast we were" - fast at what?
Clarified. Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The info about Inner Ear/Don Zientera is not presented in the best way - it doesn't flow well at all
Reworded to make a bit clearer. Ceoil (talk) 21:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is that perhaps too much detail to have? It still doesn't read very well to me. Karanacs (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Grindle's disillusionment with the band" - what disillusionment - that they weren't successful, that he didn't like touring, that he was getting tired of his bandmates?
  • not sure what this means - "was a key event for all-ages shows"
Clarified. Ceoil (talk) 00:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't quite get the inclusion of the story about the Xs for underage club goers. What is the purpose of its inclusion?
Clarified. Ceoil (talk) 00:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • any info on how many copies, total, they sold of their album or of the 1996 issue of their demo sessions?
Not very many, likely less than 1500 at the time. This kind of info is usually paticularly hard to find for independant releases. As the figures are so low (the phrase is more talked about than heard), labels tend to be silent as to the actual volume. Marketing, see. Ceoil (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • did the album get airplay around the country? was their music ever played overseas?
This is covered by the "one of the first to break out of their regional scene" statement. Can find no info re oversees. Germany would be the most likely place they would have recieved attention, but I can't speak German well enough to trawl the web archives of their radio stations. Ceoil (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • All sentences with quotations need a citation, even if that means the citation is duplicated in subsequent sentences.
Done, as far as I can see. Ceoil (talk) 22:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see that the X is explained again later - perhaps just leave it out of the first section?
  • The X stuff makes more sense to me, but the article has not fleshed out how this was "a key event for the popularity of all-ages shows". Obviously, this had been done before in California. What made this particular show a key event? What impact did it have in the future? Karanacs (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karanacs (talk) 21:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karanacs, all of you points are astute, but all can be resolved. Will let you know when the corrections have been made. Ceoil (talk) 00:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article has been improved - thanks Ceoil! A few more issues:

  • Probably need a cite for "The band adopted the marking, and though it was initially meant to signify youth, it became a wider emblem for bands prepared to play to audiences under the legal age to be served alcohol."
  • Perhaps straight edge could be explained a bit? I had to follow the wikilink to figure out what it was.
  • Should the lead clarify that the record label was created specifically for this band?

Karanacs (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any sound samples possible? indopug (talk) 15:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Ceoil (talk) 22:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This FAC seems to be stalled, I'm asking for reviewers to revisit. Ceoil (talk) 17:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Most of my concerns above still stand. Kaldari (talk) 17:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Which ones have been addressed/still stand? Thanks for your edits so far. CloudNine (talk) 17:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • The article still doesn't discuss the issue of the band's youth (other than the fact that they were underage). I think this deserves a little more prominence in the article—not just saying they were teenagers, but talking about how this affected their place in the local punk scene. Dance of Days has some good material on this. Also, did the band influence straight edge in any way other than introducing the black X's? If so, that should be mentioned. Finally, I still think the article could use some more book citations, although this has improved substantially since the article was nominated. Kaldari (talk) 18:06, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Ceoil (talk) 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/The_Teen_Idles/archive1&oldid=1136457828"