Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Shen Kuo/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 20:26, 7 May 2007.

Shen Kuo edit

Self nomination. In the long history of Chinese science, the polymath Shen Kuo (1031-1095) is one of its greatest figures. Furthermore, he is one of the most important figures in the global history of science. As the article states, he was a "mathematician, meteorologist, geologist, mineralogist, military general and strategist, diplomat, notable scholar, astronomer, pharmacologist, hydraulic engineer, academy chancellor, finance minister, state inspector, State Foundation Viscount, and head official for the Bureau of Astronomy". A small list of his achievements and credentials include the first in history to describe the magnetic needle for a compass, the first to discern the concept of true north, created a theory of land formation (geomorphology) based upon empirical observations of marine fossils found far inland from the ocean along with soil erosion and deposition of silt over time, described lunar and solar eclipses along with the belief that celestial bodies were spherical (not flat), described the first use of a drydock in China to repair large boats out of water, and without his writings on the contemporary inventor Bi Sheng, there would have been no exact knowledge of who was the first to invent movable type printing in East Asia. In addition, his wiki article is well written (currently holding Good Article status) and holds true to all of the required standards outlined in the FA criteria. Therefore, I nominate this article to be a Featured Article on wikipedia.--PericlesofAthens 05:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. If the writings on Bi Sheng were, as the lead states, extensive, why are these writings only mentioned in that one sentence in the lead? In the article on Bi Sheng I see that he wrote about him and his invention in Writings Beside the Meng Creek, but that writing isn't mentioned at all in this article. In general, if something is important enough to put in the lead, it should also be important enough to expand on in the article. If there's anything to expand on, that is, but I believe there is here. Shanes 07:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure thing dude. :) I'll add more info on that shortly (I've got the Needham volume in mind for it, too). I won't add too much info, though, as the article is of perfect length as it is, in my opinion.--PericlesofAthens 08:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done! There's a brand-new-spanking section of Shen Kuo's writings on Bi Sheng's movable type. Check it out!--PericlesofAthens 09:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support All of my concerns in this article have been addressed, and I now believe it meets FA requirements.Zeus1234 18:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. After a thorough reading of the article I have a few suggestions.

Firstly, I do not like the structure of the last paragraph of 'Career and later life.' To me the quote is not put in any context, and I dislike how it is actually mentioned as coming from the Dictionary of Scientific Biography. Mentioning books, is in my opinion, meant for footnotes (unless the books themselves are being discussed). I think that you should modify this paragraph.

This sentence in Scholarly Achievements does not make sense: Shen Kuo was not only a geologist; his memoirs list "regularities underlying phenomena" in magnetism, astronomy, and engineering.

I made a copyedit to parts of the article, fixing grammar etc. I think the article is nearly at FA status. Zeus1234 16:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Zeus. I fixed the one Dictionary of Scientific Biography thing by creating a Cref note that leads towards the notes at the bottom for reference.--PericlesofAthens 18:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also got rid of that worthless sentence you mentioned, as the paragraph reads much smoother now. Thanks for bringing that to attention.--PericlesofAthens 18:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Several comments:

The quotations need to be much shorter and to the point.
I understand that Shen is historically significant, but several sections of this article leave me wondering, "Why does this matter?" (Specifically: "Writing style", "Shen's dissertation on the Timberwork Manual", and "Book chapters".)
The "Book chapters" section should be renamed Dream Pool Essays, and given a more thorough treatment (this was Shen's most important work, right?). Listing the chapters is unnecessary unless it pertains to further prose. I was left wondering why this book was so important, what languages it had been translated into, how it influenced other notable people, its history after Shen's death, etc. (The Dream Pool Essays article itself is not any more thorough.)
The headers and sub-headers don't make sense.

Thank you for all your hard work. It is a good article--just needs a little more attention. --Fang Aili ^talk 19:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for giving this attention, Fang. I will edit the article as needed, but right now I am pressed for time with other things. Hopefully later tonight I will be able to address all of these concerns.--PericlesofAthens 19:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More comments. I thought a few more questions. (I hope you don't hate me!) Did Shen marry? have children? Where did he die? Where is his grave? Do people visit his grave? Are there any monuments to him? Does his work appear in any museums? In short, what is his legacy? How is he remembered today? --Fang Aili ^talk 20:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear God! You are a cruel, cruel man, Fang Aili! Lol. Ok, to find out all that stuff, I am going to my school's library (I was going there this evening anyway to return books from final papers). Hopefully I can have them order a book, an autobiography on Shen Kuo, that will have all necessary information. I say this because I already know what my university library offers in terms of info on Shen Kuo. I was lucky enough to get Nathan Sivin's book as it is. I checked amazon.com, and from what I saw on the first few choices, Shen Kuo's Dream Pool Essays is not available (instead some book by the same name, by some dude that doesn't really matter, lol). In any case, I will try my very best to address all these concerns. This may take a while.--PericlesofAthens 22:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck with this. I did a quick search of materials, and did not find anything readily available in the English language. Zeus1234 00:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I have dramatically reorganized and edited the article according to what you (Fang Aili) specify here and in the message you left on my user talk page, User talk:PericlesofAthens. Using Sivin's book, I have tried my best to describe the Dream Pool Essays, its reprinting and new editions over time, as well as translations into foreign languages. I will do more later, but right now I really have to tend to actual school work! Lol.--PericlesofAthens 02:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, the second sentence is overstuffed with jobs that overlap or have no clear definition. We don't need to know in the intro that he was both an astronomer AND the head official of the Bureau of Astronomy. Nor that he was both a military general AND strategist. Or that he was a mineralogist AND geologist. What is an 'Academy Chancellor' or 'State Foundation Viscount'? Shen's pharmacology doesn't seem to be discussed in the text, and could be dropped.--Nydas^(Talk) 09:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the lead intro can be changed, I see that. However, I don't know what you're talking about with the pharmacology not being discussed in the text, when clearly it states in the "Scholarly achievements" section his treatise of the Liang Feng on pharmacology, with citation to back it up.--PericlesofAthens 09:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's just one sentence, hidden in an enormous paragraph. Was Shen's contribution in this area important enough to justify mentioning it in the lead?--Nydas^(Talk) 10:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have just added more prose in the middle paragraph to address your concern. Check it now.--PericlesofAthens 10:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quote from the article: "For pharmacology, Shen wrote of the difficulties of adequate diagnosis and therapy, as well as the proper selection, preparation, and administration of drugs".--PericlesofAthens 10:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are also dismissing (or forgetting) the preemptive lead into his interest of pharmacology in the Birth and Youth section.--PericlesofAthens 10:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article is pretty long as it is, but if you want I can add much more prose from the source of Nathan Sivin's book and Needham's volumes on medical info written by Shen Kuo.--PericlesofAthens 10:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could you not break up the sections into smaller chunks? The sheer size of some of them makes the article very difficult to read. In particular, the scholarly achievements section seems like a laundry list of Shen's achievements. Create a section on magnetism, a section on geology, etc, rather than rushing through. If that makes the article too long, then cut back on unimportant details like what his raised-relief map was made of.--Nydas^(Talk) 10:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great suggestion actually. I will get on that.--PericlesofAthens 10:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime, to shorten the section of Scholarly Achievements, I moved that large paragraph about all his other works besides the Dream Pool Essays into its own new section at the end, called "Other written works".--PericlesofAthens 21:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I have not been able to contribute much since I have been busy lately writing final papers for class while chasing after a girl. Lol. I will try and contribute more as soon as possible.--PericlesofAthens 19:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of his legacy, Shen Kuo seems to be largely unappreciated (a shame). Looking throughout the internet, there is no information on any monuments erected in honor of Shen Kuo (since monuments of medieval people are mostly erected for the greatest generals and kings and not too many others who fall into other categories, another shame). I also added where he died, which was his garden estate mentioned in the article. As far as I know (and by reading Sivin's work), the location of his grave is unknown (which would mean people do not visit). However, I did find out some interesting info from this site here: http://www.seu.edu.cn/EC/english/jsqt3.htm

"THE RELIC OF MENGXI GARDEN...Mengxi Garden situated in the southeastern corner of Zhenjiang City is where Shen Kuo of the Song Dynasty lived in his later years. The garden was designed and built by Shen Kuo, who wrote "Mengxi Notes". There used to be a small stream named Mengxi in the garden: hence the garden name Mengxi Garden. The garden itself has been ruined, and what remains is Yanjia Lane of Mengxi."

That's at least somewhat of a legacy besides the scholarly field...--PericlesofAthens 15:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, I just reorganized the scholarly section according to Nydas' requests. I believe I have fulfilled those demands and suggestions that he made.--PericlesofAthens 00:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, I just expanded the sub-section on the magnetic compass.--PericlesofAthens 00:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, the article is looking better. However, there are still too many overstuffed listy sentences. Stuff like:

Shen Kuo wrote extensively on a wide range of different subjects and early studies involving meteorology, mineralogy, magnetics, optics, mechanical engineering, as well as art, architecture, divination, medicine, mathematics, astronomy, and many more.

This should be pared down to only mention the fields where he had a significant impact. Some could be dropped entirely from the article; what is so important about Shen's work on optics, for example? Just because his biography mentions it, doesn't mean we have to. I would also lose every quotation from the article. They're too long, break up the article and don't add anything. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a primary source. Finally, the article desperately needs more pictures of Shen.--Nydas^(Talk) 13:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, as to your first points about the lead sentence in the Scholarly achievements section and the mentioning of optics, I shortened the first sentence (getting rid of the list of different studies since it is redundant considering they are listed in the Dream Pool Essays section below) and just got rid of the sentence on optics altogether. As to your point about quotations: I am aware that wiki is not a primary source, but if you view many other featured articles, such as Pericles, they use an extensive amount of quotes to bolster and clarify the bulk of written prose around them. The vast majority of this article is written prose, while I provide 5 large block quotes and two small sentence quotes of Shen's writing. In comparison, the article on Pericles provides 6 large block quotes of speeches attributed to Pericles. Therefore, I would like a more convincing argument as to why the quotations should be scrapped entirely. If anything the larger ones should just be skimmed down a bit, but not deleted, that is a bit extreme. In regards to more pictures of Shen Kuo, another shame is that the picture provided in this article is one of only three pictures of Shen Kuo available on the internet. Go ahead, type Shen Kuo into google images and you'll see what I'm saying. [1] There is one that is very similar, used on this website here: [2], while the only other one I have found is this tiny postage stamp picture of Shen Kuo: [3]. What do you think of them?

I agree with Pericles here. There is no reason to eliminate the quotations, as they allow us to see ways in which She was viewed by others. As for images, I have some suggestions. Zeus1234 15:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please share! Lol.--PericlesofAthens 15:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! Zeus just found the grave headstone of Shen Kuo online by searching his name in Chinese characters instead! Please do upload that Zeus, that would be great. That and a description of where it is (most likely in or near Zhenjiang).--PericlesofAthens 15:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Searching with Shen's Chinese writing characters, I found this sculpted bust of him that looks very good: [4], it can be found from this website here: [5], a .edu link, although I'm not sure what their copyright status is, since I cannot read in Chinese writing.

I don't think copyright is mentioned on the page. Zeus1234 18:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Most (all?) featured biographies do not feature the level of quotations this article has. Of pre-modern scientists, Galileo Galilei has none, Issac Newton has only a small number of short ones. The Pericles quotes are far shorter and seperated from the main text. In addition, Pericles was an orator, so quotes seem more appropriate. You still haven't explained what the quotes add to the article.--Nydas^(Talk) 16:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since he was a writer, it would seem logical that there be examples of the way in which he wrote. It gives the reader the chance to actually read the writing of the person in the context of his life, instead of just discussing his writing. Just because other featured articles do not contained quotations doesn't mean they should be excluded. I absolutely think the quotes need to be a part of the article. Zeus1234 18:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In addition: Pericles persuaded his ideas and conveyed pathos, logos, and ethos by means of verbal communication in many famous speeches to the Athenian ecclesia. Shen Kuo persuaded and conveyed his ideas and empirical observation to the Chinese public through quill and ink on paper. Pericles is universally viewed as one of the best orators and rhetorical speakers of ancient Athens (and Greece in general), while Shen Kuo's written work is considered one of the most treasured pieces of classical Chinese scientific literature. In either case, verbal or written, ideas are being conveyed. Plus, it might hurt the clarity of the various subjects discussed in the article if I were to take away the quotes. For example, the process of Bi Sheng's movable type printing as described in detail by Shen Kuo. There is no need to rewrite and reword that into prose, as Shen Kuo, the first in history to write of the subject, says it best. It would also be very difficult to convey in prose his deep philosophical approach and personal beliefs, as shown in the quote from the Personal beliefs and philosophy section of the article. I made a somewhat worthy introduction to explain it, but really, that quote sums it up better than the prose could. As for the geological theory and astronomy sections, if I were to convert every sentence of those quotes to prose, I'd basically be saying the same thing, only what is the point of that? That is my input.--PericlesofAthens 02:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The level of detail in the quotes is inappropriate considering that they're not even about Shen Kuo. Do we need to know that:"When he wished to print, he took an iron frame and set it on the iron plate. In this he placed the types, set close together. When the frame was full, the whole made one solid block of type. He then placed it near the fire to warm it."

I would say no. This adds nothing to the article. It's for Wikisource, not Wikipedia.--Nydas^(Talk) 16:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I just added information on the location and restoration of Shen Kuo's tomb in Yuhang District, Hangzhou. This addresses one more of Fang Aili's concerns and suggestions for the article.--PericlesofAthens 13:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I just woke up because my stupid dog was barking. So I thought I'd use the time I was awake to add a new section to Shen's article, the "Legacy" section. This was one of Fang Aili's suggestions to me in a message on my user talk page. With the information added on Shen's tomb and the government-restored garden estate where he once lived, I think I have addressed Fang Aili's concerns fairly well.--PericlesofAthens 11:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.