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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rudolf Caracciola/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:59, 1 September 2009 [1].

Rudolf Caracciola edit

Nominator(s): Apterygial 00:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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My first attempt at writing about this oft-neglected era of motorsport. Thanks go to 4u1e for the comments and Malleus Fatuorum for the copyedit. If possible, I'd like to get the article on the main page for the 28th of September, the 50th anniversary of his death. Please note that one image (File:Caratsch.jpg) is lacking sourcing information, but SoWhy has contacted the original uploader (an admin on de.wiki) and we are currently awaiting a reply. Apterygial 00:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment For the "Complete European Championship results" table, we can't use bold as a symbol per WP:MOSBOLD. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's a convention used across all motorsport articles, so changing it's not a small thing. I can't see anything in MOSBOLD, which seems to be mainly concerned with article text rather than tables, that forbids it. Surely it's just another 'special case' like the other examples listed there? It's certainly the neatest, simplest way of getting the information across without clutter or confusion. 4u1e (talk) 06:55, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional support - Support providing the issues surrounding the image are resolved. Otherwise the article looks good; it reads well, is free of excessive jargon and is comprehensive in it's coverage. As a minor point, I'd like to see articles created where there are red-links, but that isn't enough of a problem to prevent the article obtaining FA status IMO. AlexJ (talk) 15:59, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Image concerns should be resolved. File:Millemiglia-Radicofani-Montalcino.jpg was never published, and is now released into the public domain, author information is now present. The original uploader of File:Caratsch.jpg said that the image, released in the US, was not accompanied by a copyright tag, hence under US law it is in the public domain. Apterygial 01:08, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:05, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does this page make a case for reliability? Also, it's just a quote from someone, not original writing on the part of the website, and quoted from Neubauer's book (which I don't have access to). Apterygial 02:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not familiar with the website, but it does seem to include some respectable writers on its roster - former BBC Top Gear presenter Chris Goffey, for one. 4u1e (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am satisfied with the reliability of the source. The list of contributors on the website includes numerous people from a defunct reliable TV program. Also, it's a quote, not a contentious fact which would require a HIGHLY reputable source. Royalbroil 12:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The author of the piece being referenced, Ross Finlay, has had works published by the Reader's Digest and the Automobile Association amongst other journalist credits. I'm content that this reference is reliable. AlexJ (talk) 22:55, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Very nice and engaging article. Well written and appears comprehensive, well-researched and compliant with MOS. Some minor points that I would like to see addressed:
-I'd prefer to see the following opinions removed or attributed to someone:
"Perhaps his only real disappointment in 1932"
"From here, he might have been able to see Seaman leave the track at the same corner"
"He has a reputation of a perfectionist, who very rarely had accidents or caused mechanical failures in his cars, who could deliver when needed regardless of the conditions."
-"the Clerk of the Course ordered Caracciola to cede the lead to Rosemeyer on the ninth lap." Why?
-1939 championship - perhaps mention who declared Lang champion, and why Muller has a claim. 4u1e (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I've fixed all of these concerns, either by removing opinions or further citing them. On the other two points, I have added additional information. Apterygial 02:22, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm happy with your alterations. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 16:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments – Just a few quickies, since it's late in America and I'm tired. Hopefully I can find time in the next day or two to copy-edit the rest, if needed.
  • A lot of sentences in the first paragraph start with "He". Can some variety be introduced?
  • I changed one "He" to Caracciola to break it up a little. Apterygial 11:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and also set speed records for the firm." Little redundant word that can be chopped out.
  • I've seen a couple reviewers say that alt text for images shouldn't have a person's name. Giants2008 (17–14) 03:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eubulides went through the alt text in the article an found no fault. It seems entirely logical to me that his name should be mentioned, as I've described him in the lead picture, so further descriptions would just get repetitive. Anyway, thanks for your review so far. Apterygial 11:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with minor alterations by User:Royalbroil
    • Is there a translation for Caratsch?
      • I wouldn't be able to source this, but I would say that it is a corruption of Caracciola's name, spelt the German way, and as such wouldn't have a translation. Apterygial 06:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • define or wikilink "works driver", "reserve driver", "Clerk of Course". Could be links to List of motorsport terminology.
      • I did "works driver" and "Clerk of Course". I think "reserve driver" is fairly self explanatory, and probably doesn't need to be linked. Apterygial 06:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Like many early motor racing drivers, he was descended from aristocracy" says the same thing as "Motorsport in Germany at the time, as in the rest of Europe, was an exclusive sport, mainly limited to the upper classes." The thoughts should be next to each other to build on each other. Or they could be separate if you don't repeat the thought that early motor racing drivers were rich.
      • I think they are fairly different thoughts. Caracciola was descended from aristocracy, but that went back centuries, and I don't really think he could be considered upper class. His parents owned a hotel, after all, and they probably weren't terribly rich. I can't imagine any Princes working as apprentices at an automobile factory! Apterygial 06:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "started from the back row of the grid (decided by a ballot)" - the ballot part is unnecessarily confusing and probably not needed because it begs questions. Why was there a ballot and who voted? The fans? The drivers?
      • I recommended that this was included. At the time starting positions were drawn at random, not set by qualifying times as almost all readers will expect, so the implication of starting last is not what it is today. Perhaps say instead that drivers drew lots for starting positions, or that positions were allocated randomly, both of which avoid the implication of an electoral ballot. 4u1e (talk) 05:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "to refill his car with petrol, ruled him out of contention" should be some rewording. "ruled him out of contention" is technically not correct (who ruled that he's out of contention?). It did place him too far behind to recover.
    • "after their car's generator burnt out" generator should be wikilinked to Alternator#Automotive_alternators because I think it's too technical for a non-motorsport enthusiast. There are other more common engine parts like valve, axle, etc. that you should consider wikilinking.
      • You would need to link to Electrical_generator#Vehicle-mounted_generators, not the alternator link, btw. 4u1e (talk) 05:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Linked to 4u1e's link. Apterygial 06:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • There still are around 5 more car parts mentioned in the article that failed which caused him to retire from events that should get wikilinks like valves, etc. Royalbroil 11:43, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I got as many as I could spot; let me know if there are any more. Apterygial 23:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Alfa Romeo's dominance was so great the team could choose the top three positions" - what does this mean?
      • I added a short bit which should clarify it. Apterygial 06:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I still don't understand. Why were they able to choose their starting position? Did the grid alignment system change from random allocation to something else? Was the quickest qualifier able to select where they start? Did they have the quickest 3 qualifiers as a team and thus were able to select 3 spots anywhere on the starting grid? Royalbroil 11:43, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Not their starting positions, their finishing positions. Hopefully adding "finishing" should make it clear. Apterygial 23:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • reason for Chiron's firing is too far off-topic "ostensibly for refusing to stay at the same hotel as the rest of the team" Royalbroil 04:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Removed. It's a great story though. :) Thanks for the review so far. Apterygial

Support I am satisfied that all of my concerns were addressed. Royalbroil 23:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, but u should add the pronunciation of his name as he has a rather tricky last name to pronunce for non-Italians. --Sporti (talk) 16:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had a shot at it, but I don't really fancy my effort. Apterygial 00:51, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have the Supporting editors reviewed the outstanding question on reliable sources? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – My run-through to clean up various minor prose issues has gone slower than I would have liked, but I am getting there. There is one sentence, however, that I can't fix without knowledge of the subject: "He transferred to a private clinic in Bologna, where his injuries remained in plaster for six months." I'm pretty sure his body parts were in the cast, and the sentence should say that. Giants2008 (17–14) 17:10, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you mean something like "He transferred to a private clinic in Bologna, where his leg remained in plaster for six months."? Apterygial 23:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please be specific and change your proposed sentence to say "... in a plaster cast for six months". Just saying plaster is too informal - I'd be wondering: a plaster what-huh??). Royalbroil 12:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that's a little harsh, Royal. 'In plaster' is perfectly normal (and formal) usage for a plaster cast, and very unlikely to be confused with a sticking plaster. 4u1e (talk) 14:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is that what the suggestion is to change the sentence? I'll change it if need be, but I'm not able to spot an obvious problem there. Apterygial 22:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry if you took my comment to be harsh or crude, certainly it was not my intention. I've never heard the usage "in plaster" to mean "in a plaster cast" - maybe it's not formal enough in American English but is fine in Australian and British English. It reads as way too informal to this American. I hope that you change it - if it reads as informal to part of the world, don't you want change it to something that equally as good to you and better in the world view? Royalbroil 02:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have changed it. Looks like another one of those irritatingly common differences between British English (of which Australian English is a subset) and American English. I've never thought of "in plaster" as being either informal or ambiguous. Apterygial 07:21, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, I have run into these problems many times! Royalbroil 00:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I like this article. Very cool. Not a big motor sports fan, but the old stuff is intriguing to me. In terms of scope and focus, this is terrific. I'm not going to comment on the sources, 'cause I don't know the literature well. Your images are appropriate, and well spaced, although I do think some of them could be bigger, because it is hard to see what they are in the thumb size. Writing I do know something about, and here are my comments on that. Please bear in mind these are niggling little comments, for the most part, relating to clarity, etc. I do think your use of commas is minimalist, and normally I'd use more, but my friends call me the "comma-kazi" (and I call them "comma-tose"). sb=should be

*...which ruled him out of racing for more than a year... sounds like it was a rule...how about eliminated him from racing....

    • For me, "eliminated" sounds even more like it was a competition, and he lost because he was injured. I don't know, I just doesn't sound right. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Mercedes-Benz racing team in 1934, with whom...sb with which....

    • I think "with whom". The racing team is a group of people, not an object. If it was a car, or a type of tyre, "with which" would be appropriate. Apterygial 06:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ah....American vs Queen's English.

*Motorsport in Germany at the time, as in the rest of Europe, was an exclusive sport, mainly limited to the upper classes. redundant

    • I disagree. I think it provides context and helps lead onto the next sentence. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • well, I still disagree. How about eliminating this part from the first paragraph: " Like many early motor racing drivers, he was descended from aristocracy;" First, you don't have a cite for it...do we know how many others there were, and secondly, it's distracting. The important thing you're explaining here is how that Italian name ended up on a German. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*As the sport became more professional in the early 1920s, specialist drivers, like Caracciola, began to dominate it (missing)

    • I think the it is implicit. Seems a little clumsy having a dangling it at the end. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Need to write out AVUS the first time.

*Later in 1923, he was hired by Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft shouldn't the name be in English? piped link?

*Rosenberger lost control at the North Curve on the eighth lap when trying to pass a slower car, and crashed into the timekeepers' box, killing all three occupants, but Caracciola kept driving.... but? how about omitting the but (since you have the same structure in the next sentence but one). Caracciola kept driving. (and what happened to Rosenberger?)

    • Done. Rosenberger lived, and later co-founded Porsche. I think he died in the 60s... Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*He was surprised, when he crossed the 20th and final lap, to have won the race. He wasn't surprised to be finish the race, certainly....?

    • He was surprised to have been announced the victor; I think he thought he was going to come last and blow any chance he had of ever driving for Mercedes. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
then the sentence is awkward, then. could you clean it up a bit? Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sticking my oar in again (sorry Ap!): "When he finished the 20th and final lap, he was surprised to find that he had won the race"? 4u1e (talk) 19:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, 4u, I've changed it to your suggestion. It's always good to get more eyes in. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*...However, a lengthy pit stop, which took four and a half minutes to refuel his car, left him unable to recover the time, and he eventually finished third

  • Caracciola and Chiron drove into a ditch at the side of the road to avoid the debris; while Chiron was able to continue Caracciola drove into a tree. huh???? How about: To avoid the debris, Caracciola and Chiron both drove off the road; Chiron was able to continue in the race after pushing his car out of a ditch, but Caracciola had driven into a tree.
    • I don't think Chiron got out, he must have rocketed out from the ditch back onto the circuit (this kind of crazy thing happened a lot in the early days) while Caracciola drove along the ditch for a bit and crashed into the tree. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
how spectacular that was! Can you clean it up a bit to clarify it? To avoid the debris, C and C drove into a ditch; Chiron drove out the other end, but C hit a tree and was out of the race. Or something....
I've changed it to something like that. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • ...the local fleet of Alfa Romeos battled for the lead early in the race, but when they fell back Caracciola was able to take control. .... How about splitting it in two. When they fell back, Caracciola was able to take control....
    • Seems to work well as one sentence, flows well and makes a clear connection between related ideas. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*with ten laps remaining in the race Caracciola was so close he could see Nuvolari changing gears. It was in this manner that the race finished. awkward .....how about .... For the last ten laps of the race, C. was so close he could see Nuvolari changing gears.

    • I changed the second sentence to "He finished the race just behind Nuvolari." Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Avusrennen. translate, or explain.

  • ...where his injuries remained in a plaster cast for six months? His injuries remained in a cast? *Where did his hip go? Presumably it was in the cast?
other reviewers stumbled over this sentence, so it should be a clue that it's not universally accessible at first, or even second, read. I realize it's probably the difference between our colloquialisms, but you're saying his injuries remained in a cast. It gives me the giggles, like the rest of him wasn't in the cast, just his injuries. Obviously, you mean his injured parts, but they didn't remove the parts from the rest of him, so he remained in a cast too. How about his injured hip remained in a cast?
"where his leg remained in a plaster cast for six months"? 4u1e (talk) 19:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"he remained in a plaster cast" makes me giggle, imagining Rudi completely enveloped by plaster for six months... I appreciate your logic that other reviewers have had a problem with the sentence at the moment, but your suggestion just confuses me. He injured his thigh, not his hip. Perhaps "his injured leg remained in a plaster cast"? Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • YES! :)


*Charlotte was able to take her husband back to Arosa, where the altitude and fresh air would aid his recovery. Charlotte took....?

*Alfred Neubauer, the Mercedes racing manager, travelled to the Caracciolas' chalet in Lugano in November with a view to signing him for the...I'm sure there was a great view at the chalet in Lugano, but probably he planned to sign him. I think "view to signing him" is probably slang?

    • No, but "plan to sign" seems to work just as well. There would have been a great view, the chalet is just above the lake. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*A visit from Chiron encouraged him otherwise, and despite his initial reservations he was persuaded to drive the lap of honour ... A visit from Chiron encouraged him to return to racing, and, despite his initial reservations, he was persuaded to drive the lap of honour (also, needs clarification, lap of honour?)

*Charlotte died when the party she was skiing with in the Swiss Alps was hit by an avalanche. .... Charlotte died in an avalanche in the Swiss Alps....? too much detail.

    • Don't really think so, it doesn't go too far out of the way, but has enough to explain what happened. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*.... (desert race)....from his crash in Monaco two years before, and that he was now back among the contenders

* Although the chassis of the W25 was shortened, and the engine was significantly upgraded to 4.74 litres, but the car proved inferior to the Type C developed by Auto Union

* Following the AVUS race, Caracciola, along with Rosemeyer, Nuvolari and Mercedes' new driver, Richard Seaman,

* ....but in a practice for the race, Caracciola was hit on the head by an object, believed to be a bird, and crashed into the south wall. The organisers had insisted he wear a tank driver's helmet, which saved his life; despite this precaution, he suffered a severe concussion and was in a coma for several days

    • "in practice" is very common in motorsport writing, as it takes place at designated times and is always part of a race weekend, unlike the more informal practice sessions in other sports. I think the comma breaks up the flow of the sentence a liitle too much, and seems a little redundant. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
you've managed to keep jargon out of the article, mostly, so I suggest you fix this in some way so it is not "common motorsport writing"....
"During a practice session..." Long, but prob the only way to define it. 4u1e (talk) 19:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* Like most German racing drivers in Nazi Germany, Caracciola was a member of the NSKK.[117] The primary function of the NSKK was as a paramilitary organisation of the Nazi Party devoted to motor racing and motor cars, and during the Second World War it handled transport and supply logistics. Awkward. How about... Like most German racing drivers in Nazi Germany, Caracciola had joined the NSKK, a paramilitary organization of the NSDAP devoted to motor racing and motor cars; during the war, it handled transport and supply.

* ...despite strict currency controls his salary was paid... needs comma: and, despite strict currency controls, his salary...

*During the war, he continued to receive a pension from Daimler-Benz until 1942, when the firm ceased his payments under pressure from the Nazi party Confusing. The NS-regime pressured the DB to stop his pension payments in 1942

    • I've jumbled the sentence around a bit. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Links: German Grand Prix, Italian Grand Prix, etc., all have pages, yet you link them to the year, not the page?

    • I prefer to link to the more specific page. I could use the links without piping, but it would mean the same year is repeated several times across the same paragraph, and would grow redundant and vaguely annoying after a bit. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ah, so there will eventually be pages for each Grand Prix year? good to know. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There should be pages now. There's one for every World Championship GP. 4u1e (talk) 19:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SOrry - brain fade. There are pages for all post-1950 races, but not yet for all pre-1950 ones. 4u1e (talk) 10:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There should be a page for each European Championship race (although there wasn't too many of them). Apterygial 21:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These are not major, in fact they are somewhat niggling details, but will help the overall readability, I think....Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:44, August 29, 2009

Thanks. Where I haven't changed according to your suggestion, I've attempted to explain why. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apterygial, the things I still have questions/comments about are not crossed out, and I've spaced between them so you can find them more easily. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've got them now, apart from that plaster one. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SUPPORT. This is a very interesting article to read, even for a non-motorsports fan. the writing is nicely done, easy to read, and it has a good tone. The links seem appropriate, and easy to follow. I cannot comment on the sources. The pictures work with the flow of the text. All in all, definitely ready for prime time. And Aptery is a delight to work with. I've learned a lot about Australian slang ;) For the sake of "transparency," I should say that the editor and I discussed this on my user talk page, and reached the conclusion that if half the English speaking world understood it, and the other half didn't, then it probably should be fixed so that all (or at least most) of the English speaking world understood it. The issue over the plaster cast was not just "plaster cast" but how the plaster cast was used (what was encased in it). Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it was good working with you. Apterygial 21:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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