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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Red Clay State Historic Park/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 15 November 2023 [1].

Red Clay State Historic Park edit

Nominator(s): Bneu2013 (talk) 05:13, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a state park in southeastern Tennessee that was the site of the last capital of the Cherokee Nation in the eastern United States before the Cherokee removal, without a doubt one of the most tragic and shameful events in American history. Here, from 1832 to 1838, the Cherokee fought to retain their ancestral lands, before they were forcibly removed under the enforcement of the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Arguably the location where the Trail of Tears really began, today Red Clay State Historic Park preserves one of the most historically significant sites in the state of Tennessee and Southeastern United States. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:13, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
    • Done.
  • File:Cherokee-eternal-flame-tn1.jpg should include a tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:50, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Nikkimaria: - I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what the issue is. The photo is the work of the uploader. Bneu2013 (talk) 06:02, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • The photo is, yes - but what is shown in the photo is not. US copyright law does not include freedom of panorama for 3D works other than buildings, so we need to include some sort of tag indicating the status of that work. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie edit

Tentative oppose (with sadness), primarily on comprehensiveness. Looking at other FAs on state parks, there is much more detail on climate, geology, the site itself. I think you ought to be able to add information in regards to these factors. For instance, there is only one sentence worth of information about the Blue Hole Spring, which seems significant to the point that you ought to be able to say more. Have you been able to access/find the NRHP nomination form? That may be a valuable source. Has there been anything else scholarly published since 1980? I also have some concerns about the sourcing-- for instance, FN 38 needs a page number, what makes FN 40 (hosted at tnstateparks.com) reliable, FNs 14 and 15 ought to use the same citation style. It's an interesting article, and you've done a really great job bringing this up from where it was, but I think more is needed. Suggest maybe a peer review before nom. Eddie891 Talk Work 16:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Eddie891: - this is primarily a historic park, not a park about a natural feature. Other than the Blue Hole Spring, there really aren't any "interesting" features to talk about. There are a few sentences about the geography and physiography of the park (which is in no way unique to the area it is located), as well as endangered species. This is also a relatively small park at just 263 acres. Also, have you read the article thoroughly? There is more than one sentence about the Blue Hole Spring. tnstateparks.com is an official website of the Tennessee State government, and Lillard and Ehle use different citation styles because the latter is only cited twice in the article. The NRHP nomination form should be accessible by following the link. Finally, I have researched this park extensively, and have not found any scholarly studies on the site since 1980 other than the 2019 study that is cited. Bneu2013 (talk) 19:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're right about the Blue Hole Spring, I got distracted in read-through. Apologies on that. My point was more that if you're going to say something is "iconic", I'd expect to see some explanation why, beyond that present in the article. If it is widely represented, what shows that? Do quantifiable numbers of people visit the spring? Is its image widely published? Is it well-known? See MOS:PUFFERY.
Information like climate factors should be accessible, and is, imo, relevant to any park with oudoors recreation activities.
However, are you sure there's nothing else? The first thing I found on a search was this 300+ page 2021 PhD thesis by a seemingly qualified author that could arguably be reliable per WP:SCHOLARSHIP and at the very least probably has some other potential sources. For Lillard and Ehle, you should pick between sfn or harvp. Your link to FN 1 doesn't point to the NRHP form, at least for me. Eddie891 Talk Work 21:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
this book suggests that Kelton, Cherokee Medicine may also hold more information, and itself includes the quote "Creeks nevertheless suggest that Red Clay is their territory", something I don't see mentioned in the article. What about this guidebook? Eddie891 Talk Work 21:25, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: I found the NRHP nomination form. Pitifully under-detailed. Eddie891 Talk Work 21:29, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to strike my oppose because there's definitely less written on this park than I thought there was, the nominator is clearly editing in good faith, and peer review would probably have been an exercise in futility based upon how few people head over there to comment. I would still like to hear back about some of these points, however. Eddie891 Talk Work 21:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If I remember right, Corn's book refers to the spring as "iconic", but I'll have to find my copy. If I had to guess why, it's because the blue hue of the spring is a rarity in this area. I believe there's also something in there about the mineralogical explanation for the blue hue; I'll try to add a sentence about that. The thesis, which I must admit I have not read, is by the same person who authored the study that is cited in the article, but I'll take a look at it. With regards to whether there are "other sources" about this park, there are a lot of books and scholarly works that briefly mention it, such as books about the history of Native Americans or Tennessee for example. But I know of no other books, studies, etc., that extensively go into depth about the history of this site, other than the ones that are with cited in this article, or are the partial sources for sources in the article. Also, with regards to the "Creeks nevertheless suggest that Red Clay is their territory", this may refer to the state of Georgia (or another location), which is known for its red clay soils. It certainly does not refer to the council grounds. I the meantime, I will take a look later today at the dissertation and see if I can find any other sources about the history of this place, as well as make the changes you suggested. Bneu2013 (talk) 22:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update - actually, I had totally forgot about this, but there was a minor controversy related to the establishment of the state park where the Creeks were critical of the park because they had inhabitated the area prior to the Cherokee. I don't remember any thing about the council grounds being an important site to them, however; I think it was just the area. But I will take a look at this. On a related note, I have actually wondered about the history of the site prior to the relocation of the Cherokee Nation (i.e., when did Red Clay become an important site to the Cherokee). As far as I have been able to find, information about this is scant, so it's likely that we really don't know. But I haven't seen any sources that explicitly say this. Maybe the thesis also has some information about this too. Bneu2013 (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you want me to check out what Kelton has to say on it, I would be happy to. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
re "other sources", I just think it kinda odd we don't have a single book source (to my eyes, on a skim) from the past 20 years, especially for citing history of a Native American tribe, the studies of which have been greatly improved in recent decades. Can you replace any of the sources on those topics with more modern book sources, even if they aren't as in depth? For instance, a 40-year old source is probably not the most recent scholarship we can use to cite Before the arrival of the first European settlers, the area was inhabited by the Cherokees, an Iroquoian-speaking people believed to have migrated south from the Great Lakes area, where other Iroquoian tribes arose. Their territory encompassed parts of present-day western North Carolina, western South Carolina, East Tennessee, northern Georgia, and northern Alabama.. I'd want to see the most up-to date stuff as possible where we can. If you're having trouble getting access to more recent publications, WP:REX is a great place to ask. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You can look it up if you'd like. With regards to the books that are 40+ years old, those were both written by local historians, and are primarily about the area, not the history of the Cherokee. I can definitely find more up-to-date sources for the latter, even though generic facts like the one above have been known for a very long time. I shouldn't have trouble finding any of this. Bneu2013 (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that local historians are good sources for the local history, just think the Cherokee history can be replaced with more up-to-date sourcing, especially because it likely shouldn't be too hard to do. Eddie891 Talk Work 16:26, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I'm going to have to wait until this weekend to do any work on this article. 01:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC) Bneu2013 (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Update - Eddie891 - just to let you know, I am currently reading Shelton's thesis, and as such will have my changes made in the next few hours. I'll let you know when I'm done. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your diligence and the updates. Eddie891 Talk Work 22:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Guerillero edit

Thoughts

  • others= isn't doing what I think you are trying to.
  • I continue my objection to google maps as a high-quality reliable source. There should be a map published by the federal, state, county, or local government that shows the same thing.
    • I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. If you object to Google Maps as a "high-quality reliable source", then I wouldn't expect you to use it to navigate. But I will replace with a USGS topo map. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:19, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Update - I've replaced the GM with USGS, using it to cite forest cover. Shelton is now used to cite the boundaries and roads in the park. I do agree that USGS is a far superior source than GM for physical features, but I do maintain that the latter should be allowed to cite things like roads. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:38, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is Minges 1998 a high-quality reliable source? us-data.org looks like his personal website to me
    • I don't think this is his personal website, but this wasn't my addition. I will take a look. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:19, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Update - replaced with a source from the National Park Service. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe it is because I am in the EU, but tnstateparks.com throws a 403 error for me.
  • Is Hunter 1972 from Newspapers.com?
    • No; no articles from the Cleveland Daily Banner prior to 1998 are not available online. These were accessed on microfilm at a library. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:19, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same with Rowland 1978
  • 33 pages of Ehle 1988 is a big range for one citation
    • Because this is mentioned more than one time in this book. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:19, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • TNGenWeb should be a via=
  • "Treaties and Land Cessions Involving the Cherokee Nation" is notes from a 2016 undergrad class
    • An undergrad class at Vanderbilt University, one of the most prestigious and top-ranked universities in the world. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:19, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • It is a SPS by an unknown author. We can't just its reliability. The rank of the university is neither here nor there because I would have the same objection to a similar PDF hosted on ox.ac.uk or mit.edu --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 13:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend that this gets archived early and is renominated only after a close look at the citations. This is just what I found after a quick review. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am reviewing the citations now, but I do not agree that all of these are problems or that this should be archived early. I will update when I am finished. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Guerillero and Eddie891: - Unfortunately something has come up which is hindering my activity on Wikipedia, but I will try to address your remaining comments over the next few days. Bneu2013 (talk) 21:29, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given the issues on sourcing, can I suggest this is withdrawn and worked on away from FAC before being returned? There is no downside to this step and the article would be in a better shape for a smoother run at FAC? - SchroCat (talk) 16:30, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. After careful consideration, I would like to withdraw this nomination. While I do think the sourcing issues are a bit overblown, they do need some work. Also it looks like I'm not going to be able to be as active over the next few weeks as I'd hoped, so I should probably wait. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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