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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 17:19, 7 March 2008.

Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney edit

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Self-nominator. I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has been a GA since November and recently went through the PR process (but did not get much attention). I believe it now satisfies FA criteria. Loopla (talk) 03:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfocused (and therefore struck) concerns; see new comment below ЭLСОВВОLД talk 16:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:NFCC#1 states “Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available”. Fair use of Image:Presbyterian_Ladies_College_Sydney_crest.png‎, therefore, does not appear supported given the presence of the free alternative Image:PLCCigaretteCard.jpg. Only the latter image – cropped, if desired – should be used. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 03:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Image:PLCCigaretteCard.jpg is a historical image from the 1920s by an American Cigarette company and was inaccurately drawn by the artist. The colours and shape of the historic image are quite different to that which has always been used by the school (Image:Presbyterian_Ladies_College_Sydney_crest.png‎) and therefore I didn't think it correctly represented the subject. Loopla (talk) 04:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the crest has been used since 1910-1917 as the one image states, the other should be tagged {{PD-US}} and {{trademark}} - even crests fall into the public domain. Calliopejen1 (talk) 05:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh sorry, the cigarette card was created sometime between 1910-1917 (not 1920s as I said earlier..getting confused). That version was never used by the school. So the "c. 1910-1917" used in the image decription refers to the creation of the item, not the years the crest was used by the school. I hope I am making some sense! Loopla (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • The stated fair use of Image:Presbyterian_Ladies_College_Sydney_crest.png‎ is “Identification and critical commentary in the Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney article, a subject of public interest. The logo confirms to readers they have reached the correct article, and illustrates the intended branding message.” The cigar version may not be an exact replica (slightly different proportions and colors), but it seems entirely unreasonable to claim, as Twenty Years has, that it is incapable of fulfilling that purpose. That "old" logos fall into PD is not necessarily true. I’m unfamiliar with Australian law, but US has legislation such as the Copyright Term Extension Act. If Australia is similar, the logo may be valid (although the cigar image would then need to be retagged and/or removed). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'm not sure if it does "confirm to readers they have reached the correct article" as it very closely resembles the former crest of Presbyterian Ladies' College, Pymble, who copied the PLC Sydney crest but changed the colours to Navy and Red (used from 1916 to 1977). If Image:PLCCigaretteCard.jpg didn't have "Presbyterian Ladies' College, Croydon" written on it I would have assumed that it was the former crest of PLC Pymble (perhaps the artist got the 2 schools confused). Loopla (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • I assume you actually meant Image:Crest Presbyterian Church of Australia.PNG? Per the article, “The College Council decided to use the same crest as that used by the Presbyterian Church of New South Wales, but with minor modifications” (emphasis added). The Opportunity for confusion is, therefore, inherent to the design and would be/is the case no matter which image is used. We have two scenarios here depending on one’s interpretation of policy/law: 1) either the logo is violating WP:NFCC#1 or 2) the cigar image is a derivative work, meaning, even if it were retagged, it would likely violate NFCC#8 in the presence of the logo. Simply put, one needs to go. Not being versed in Australian copyright law, I don’t know that I can make a recommendation one way or another. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • To say that the cigarette image confirms to readers that they have reached the corect page is completely false. It does not accurately represent the school logo, it uses incorrect colours, and is not drawn accurately. Twenty Years 06:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • Colors so important to its understanding that they receive no mention in the “Motto and crest” section? To confirm “[that one has] reached the correct article”, one must already have a familiarity with the image. Imprecise proportions, therefore, do nothing to hinder identification. If I were, for example, to take a pencil and draw the Nike swoosh as only a thin line (i.e. no variation in thickness or “points”), any reasonable person could identify the logo. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                • I don't understand why one needs to go? As with most Australian schools, the P.L.C crest was never copyrighted by the school (and I didn't feel it necessary to explain that it was red and white as that can be seen in the infobox with the correct crest), and the historic image is in the public domain. Neither is breaking any copyright laws. Remove the historic image if you want but im yet to see why either needs to go. Loopla (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                  • If the PLC crest was never copyrighted, then there's no issue. Just tag it accordingly and everything is resolved. The "one must go" argument is based entirely on the assumption that the crest is copyrighted. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This article makes very extensive use of quotes, many of which could be replaced by original writing. Kakofonous (talk) 07:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have removed one that wasn't necessary. Loopla (talk) 01:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Great work. I disagree with the questions raised about the crest above. The Non-free crest is used to accurately represent the school, and to confirm to readers that they have reached the correct page. The PD image does not do either of these things. Congratulations to Loopla on a fine piece of work. Twenty Years 08:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I would like to suggest that in the "Campus section" that the line about four tennis courts be scrubbed, its non-notable, and adds nothing to the article. Twenty Years 06:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Per this PLC page, the crest (Image:Presbyterian_Ladies_College_Sydney_crest.png‎) was adopted August 23, 1888. Age, and previous comments from Loopla, suggests this image is no longer copyrighted (i.e. PD). If this is the case, update the license tag accordingly. Alternatively, if image is still copyrighted, use of Image:PLCCigaretteCard.jpg will need to be reexamined, as it would likely constitute a derivative work. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 16:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Having made one minor change [1], I believe the article meets the FA criteria. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 08:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comments by karanacs that have been addressed Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Per WP:MOSQUOTE, don't use callout quotes (with the funky quotation marks), but instead use blockquotes.
      • I'd rearrange the history section to begin with the discussions that led up to the founding of the school, and then discuss the actual founding. Currently it jumps from 1888 to 1883, then travels forward to 1888 again.
      • "The decision to start a Ladies' College was made in 1883 when the Assembly formed a special committee to investigate the establishment of Superior Boarding Schools for girls and boys" -> to me the latter half of this sentence means that the committee was to investigate IF a school should be established, not that the committee's formation marked the "decision to start the school"
        • Done I have changed the sentence to "The idea of a Presbyterian College in Sydney arose in 1883, when the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church of New South Wales formed a special committee to investigate the establishment of superior Boarding Schools for girls and boys" Loopla (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Need a citation for "Marden was a strong believer in equal opportunity in education, and has been described as an "early feminist" and "truly a man before his time". "
      • Need a citation for the quotation by John Marden
      • "Marden consolidated the new school "- what specifically did he do to consolidate the school?
      • The extremely long quotation by The Presbyterian seems unnecessary. Can some/all of this be paraphrased? Beyond the fact that it is too long, a quotation should also never have an image embedded in it like that.
        • Done I have removed the majority of this quote so it just covers the most notable physical aspects of the school (tower and stained glass window). Have also moved the image. Loopla (talk) 14:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Almost all the images are right-aligned. Can some of these be left-aligned to make it more appealing to the eye?
      • "of which was considered a controversial and ground-breaking move" -this is highly ungrammatical
        • Done I have completely re-written this part. Loopla (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is there any information about why the Council chose not to study the feasibility of a second school?
        • Comment I have been unable to find anything on why this happened. Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • need citation for quote " Marden reported that many applications were being refused because of "shortness of space""
      • Don't put alternative names (or names of buildings) in quotes and don't bold alternative names in the body of the article.
      • I'd provide a wikilink to Second World War
      • "The situation was made much worse as word was received that Australian military authorities wished to inspect the school with a view to taking it over" -> receiving word didn't make the situation worse;
    • *"kindly agreed " - is "kindly" in your sources? If not, this is POV. There are other, non-kind reasons that MEriden could have agreed to house them.
      • " In spite of the apparent happy association with Meriden, Dr. Wilkie, recommended that further integration with the school should not proceed, and thus at the end of 1924, Meriden indicated that they would no longer house the P.L.C boarders." - several issues with this.
        • Done I've removed most of this sentence and just stated "At the end of 1942, the Meriden authorites indicated that they could no longer house the P.L.C boarders" Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I assume 1924 should be 1942
        • extra comma after Dr. Wilkie (similar comma issues in other places)
        • If Dr. Wilkie recommended that further integration not occur, then how does it follow that "thus, Meriden indicated they would not longer..." I feel like I'm missing something
          • Comment From what i've heard the relationship went sour as Meriden were hoping to merge the two schools. Again i've removed most of this sentence Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "however Council's wish for the school to stay in Strathfield was not shared by most." - not shared by most of whom? Most teachers, most students, most members of the General Assembly?
      • Need a citation for information in last paragraph of school badge.
      • "It now forms the badge worn on the school uniform." - then the next section describes the school badge, which is no longer worn. I'm confused.
        • Comment The 'school badge' and 'school crest' are two different things. The crest is worn on the academic and sports uniforms in the form of a badge. The 'school badge' is known as such because it was traditionally worn on the hat in the form of a badge, but is currently only worn by ex-students and on the Pipes and Drums uniform. I've removed "It now forms the badge worn on the school uniform" to prevent confusion. Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Need a citation for "1995 saw the phasing out of the school's distinctive 'Beret' as girls found it difficult to wear. " (the reason, not the year)
      • Lots of unnecessary words wikilinked - silk, tunic, tie, embroidered, etc
      • Need citation for " Green and Gold striped school blazers are awarded to girls who represent Australia in any event."
        • Done I have removed this sentence as I cannot find a ref. Loopla (talk) 07:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Why is curriculum so far down? That seems much more important than campus, badge, etc
      • Please take Aid projects from a list format into prose.
      • Need a citation for "Finally, 1995 saw the introduction of two new houses due to increasing enrolments." (the reason, not the year)
        • Done Can't find a citation so i've removed the reason. Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Need a citation for "The Houses are named after women and men who have made a significant contribution to the life of the College."
      • There needs to be a citation for the information in the first paragraph of P.L.C. Armidale alliance
      • Why is P.L.C. Armidale alliance not in history section? Other recent information is there.
      • I think you should remove the long quote from Hoef Falls about the P.L.C. Armidale alliance - if any of that information is necessary to the article, paraphrase it.
      • In the notable alumane section, please use the see template instead of "see List of Old Girls... " in the text. Also, please mention more of the notable alumnae here
      • In the references, newspaper and magazine names should be italicized Karanacs (talk) 19:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Again per WP:MOSQUOTE, quotations shorter than 4 lines should not be offset, but should be part of the paragraph.
      • "and Council began discussing " - who/what is Council? This hasn't been mentioned before.
        • Done Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Do you have any further information on the makeup of the Council? Was it made up of parents, teachers, community members, members of the Pres. General Assembly? Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • is it "enrolments" or "enrollment"? Dictionary.com doesn't make the word plural if it is describing the number of students: "The class has an enrollment of 27 students"
        • Done Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Actually, it still says " The increase in enrolments". Is that an Aussie turn of phrase? Dictionary.com implies that this should be "The increase in enrollment" Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Comment The book on the school uses "increase in enrolments". The school website uses 'enrolment' aswell. Im fairly certain that in Aust we only use one L in enrolment. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The foundation section appears misnamed, as it covers the first 50 years of the school's existence
        • Comment I have thought this too, but can't think of a better name. Is '1883-1924' against MOS for heading names?? Im a bit stumped, would appreciate suggestions.

    Loopla (talk) 07:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

        • What if you split it into two subsections, "Foundation" and "Growth"? Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done Great idea! Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "In 1945, after intervention by the Education Trust of the N.S.W General Assembly, which had been investigating the future of the college, Council decided that the Strathfield proposal was not viable" - what type of intervention?
        • Comment I'm unsure of the nature of the intervention but assume it was due to concerns about the quality of education provided due to all the moving around. The book on the school just states that there was an intervention. Loopla (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Without more details, this just doesn't make a lot of sense. Could you just remove the part about "which had been investigating the future of the college," Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Done I have removed that part. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Don't put "Miss" in front of people's names in the article
      • Is it really necessary to have a list of principals, especially when most of them are not notable? I don't believe most school FAs have this, and I would remove this section.
        • Done Section has been removed. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I can understand why the notable facilities are in a list, but please put the individual entries in complete sentences, especially since most of them have periods at the end.
      • There are several one-sentence paragraphs. Can some of these be combined?
      • I don't think there should be so much detail on the houses and their founders.
        • Done I have cut it down as much as possible. Loopla (talk) 13:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think it's unnecessary to include color, motto, and mascot. That seems more like trivia. Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

            • Done I have removed this info. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The prose needs a great deal of work, there are numerous MOS violations, and I think the article could be organized a bit better.
      • Go through the article and eliminate pieces of redundancy wherever possible. Here is just an example: Victoria had a ladies college, "so it was felt that N.S.W. Pres. should also have one" followed immediately by "other Protestant denominations had LCs, therefore the Pres. should have one too." This could easily be shortened and combined into one sentence.
      • Is the school prayer under copyright? I know that school songs are generally not reprinted in full because of copyright issues, and I suspect that this may be an issue for the school prayer as well. (Now, I see that the school hymn is here as well -- same concerns)
        • Comment I have removed the prayer as I am unsure of its copyright status. The song however is in the public domain according to British Law as the British creator died in 1897, and the song was written in 1893. The song is also used by a few other schools. Loopla (talk) 05:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • If you keep the song, then you need to reformat that section. There is a big gap (several paragraphs of white space) in the Uniform section as a result of the song and an image being placed back-to-back. Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Comment Oh, it didn't realise! It doesn't look like that on my computer. I've made the song box smaller and moved the pic, can you still see white space? Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • Yes, I still see some white space (but not as much as before). I'm a little unsure how to reformat. The rest of the article has a lot of good images and there really doesn't appear to be room to move the hymn. Since it is the school hymn of other schools, too, do you really want to keep it? If you do, I'll have a go at rearranging, since I'm the one seeing the problem. Karanacs (talk) 21:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've also noted numerous issues with apostrophes and lack thereof. Please go through the article and make sure that the plural of "Presbyterian" is "Presbyterians" and NOT "Presbyterian's". I've also seen some instances where the possessive is meant and the plural is used instead (Countesses instead of Countess's). Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The prose still needs a good copyedit too -- lots of repetition, lots of clunky wording. Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Oppose

    • There shouldn't be a one sentence paragraph anywhere, especially in the lead.
    • A boarding school from the Wiki article is "where some or all pupils not only study, but also live during term time..." Since this includes both those who stay and don't, I don't think you need day school in the lead as well.
    • "advertised far and wide" is not encyclopedic writing
    • Periods should be inside quotations marks. For example: "end of sentence." There are a few of these in the history section to correct.
      • Done Pretty sure I got them all. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "By August 1888 the College had outgrown the Ashfield residence, which had always been considered a temporary home, and the newly established P.L.C Council began discussing alternative sites in the nearby suburb of Croydon." Who always considered it a temporary home?
    • Only full dates with day, month, and year should be linked.
    • "beautiful gardens" - beautiful should not be used, remember WP:NPOV, unless this is a quote describing the gardens.
    • The history section is too long. Try and condense some of the smaller paragraphs into the larger ones. Also, edit. Remove information that doesn't add anything to the history of the school.
    • I don't think the table of principals is needed. Those could all be incorporated into a sentence saying something like, past principals include...
      • Done Principals have been removed. Not sure where else they could be mentioned. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Under the campus section, there is no need for a list of buildings on campus. All lists should be incorporated into the text. This would help you expand the section, which is also badly needed. Could some campus information be moved from the history?
    • "P.L.C Sydney is arguably one of Australia's best girls sporting schools." This either needs to be reworded, or citations from outside sources need to be used to support it. Also, again remove or combine the one sentence paragraphs.
    • "In addition to that offered by JSHAA and IGSSA," can be better worded.
    • I think the article also needs a good copyedit, consider making a request to the LoCE. Things such as "In September 2007" should have a comma after the 2007. I saw this lack of commas a number of times.
    • The individual subheadings under Co-curriculum should be combined together, such as student life and then not broken into subheadings. They are not major topics deserving their own subheadings. I would combine maybe Ensembles, Debating and public speaking, and Aid projects. I would remove the entire Exchange programme section as it doesn't say anything about the school. I would also remove the fees section, this is not an informational brochure on the school, but an encyclopedia article. Some of this could be incorporated above.
      • Comment Exchange programme has been removed. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think the motto and crest needs its own section. Maybe try and incorporate a few sentences about it into the history section. Same with the school badge.
    • I would remove the uniform section. This is not very encyclopedic. If you want to mention it in the history you could, but not in this detail.
    • The house section should be text. Also, the level of detail found here is not necessary. We don't need to know about what the people the house is named after did. this article is about the school. The mottos and colors can go to.
    • I am not sure what the Ex-Students' Union is? Building, club, alumni organization? If it is a building, it should go in the campus section, club or alumni group should go under student life.
      • Comment I have added that it is an alumni association. I have noticed that Baltimore City College (an FA) has a separate section on its alumni association, quite similar to the one here. Im not sure therefore if it should go under student life, especially as its not an association for students, and plays only a very minor role in the daily life of current students. Just my thoughts. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The associated schools section again is not really relevant to describing this school. Focus on this school.
    • Also, sentences should never begin with 1966 saw...

    If you haven't done so already, I would encourage you to look at the current education related featured articles located here. They will give you ideas on how to format this article and the headings and subheadings that are commonly used. KnightLago (talk) 18:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oppose—needs the attention of a good copy-editor. It's not only technical glitches throughout, but odd ways of saying things, that make this unacceptable as a FA. The opening is pretty bad. Here are random examples.
    • Opening sentence is a bumpy read, with EIGHT commas in about 25 words, hello. "The Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney (P.L.C. Sydney), is an independent, Presbyterian, boarding school for girls, located in Croydon, an inner-western suburb of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia." Do we really need "New South Wales" after "Sydney"? Do they really use the dots in "PLC"? Why not make it easier for foreigners by writing "the state of New South Wales" where this occurs at the end of the first para? And can you reduce the number of occurrences of NSW? It's tedious.
    • "Founded in 1888 by a committee of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church"—If you're going to mention a committee, tell us which one. And since the decision would almost certainly have had to be endorsed by the GA, why not leave out mention of this anon committe altogether? (Who cares?)
    • "Currently"—necessary along with present tense?
    • "caters for approximately 1,350 girls from Branxton Reception (4 years old)"—the 4 years old is clunky; you have to read on to make sense of it in reverse.
    • "Round Square"—this is jargon that the poor reader will have to link-visit to make sense of. The third para, in any case, is pretty boring: isn't there anything more important to an overview than this bureaucratic stuff?
    • The Sun-Herald's ranking seven years ago is digging up the bottom of the barrel. Embarrassing. The SH is w/end entertainment, and hardly authoritative.
    • "the idea of a Presbyterian College in Sydney arose in 1883"—This is awkward ("arose").
    • "a 14-roomed gentleman's residence"—New verb, to room? Tony (talk) 05:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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