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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Otis Redding/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 13:16, 1 December 2012 [1].

Otis Redding edit

Otis Redding (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): Tomcat (7) 14:08, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is the most comprehensive account on soul singer Otis Redding's relatively brief music career. I expanded the article using Geoff Brown's book and made some small corrections. Noleander's peer review was also helpful.Tomcat (7) 14:08, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Looks good. The information in the post-Death sections needs to be rearranged though. A lot of the first paragraph of Legacy is not really about his legacy at all, but rather what inspired him as an artist. In any case, Legacy and Awards shouldn't be a part of Style at all, but separate. However, I thinking Style and Songwriting are related enough to be sub-sections in a Musicianship section. The inspriation stuff in the first para of Legacy can be moved there as well.

Why use an infobox pic where he's in profile, and his mouth is covered?—indopug (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced the infobox picture with the free sculpture image. I think I made all the formatting changes. Also updated the official websites since the new site is a bit messy. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 18:43, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am actually fine with using a non-free pic for the infobox (since no free alternative exists for a deceased person—definitely satisfies WP:NFCC). My concern was only about that particular photo.—indopug (talk) 19:03, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm going to take a more thorough look at the article in a few days, it looks really good. But I definitely agree that the main image was better off before. The statue doesn't really do the subject justice. I would suggest finding a better non-free picture than the older one and then use that. Bruce Campbell (talk) 01:39, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think this statue image is very good as it is more expressive and interesting than the previous one (which depicted a rather sad, thoughtful person). In my opinion, since there is a free file, why should a non-free file be used? On the other side, I could upload this photo, which I feel would appeal to the readers, and add it to the infobox. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 11:06, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If we are going to use a non-free image in the infobox then we should at least choose one where Redding is facing the camera. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why?--Tomcat (7) 10:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? If we are already using a non-free image than why not use one where Redding is actually looking at the camera, like a promo head shot or something? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It was shot during a performance, and he did not pose for it. It is a unique shot and one of the most interesting.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Review by GabeMc

General

  • Citations. - There should not be citations in the infobox. Any material included in the infobox should also be included and sourced in the article body and that's where the cites should be.
  • Why not?
Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Using infoboxes in articles. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The page declares "References are not needed in infoboxes if the content is repeated (and cited) elsewhere". The mention of his nicknames are totally not needed in the text.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If its not explained in the text then it shouldn't be in the infobox or lead. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this is your personal opinion then.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In running prose, per the Wikipedia MoS, the definite article preceeding the proper noun in a band name should be lowercased, e.g. the Upsetters, the Pinetoppers and the Falcons. See: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music)#Capitalization, where it states: "In band names, and titles of songs or albums, capitalize all words except: *articles (an, a, the)"
  • Redundant, overly specific genres. - Do we really need four different types of soul music listed here? Wouldn't "soul" cover the other three?
  • Yes, as all the genres are different.
Well, the cite you use to verify the four genres only says Southern Soul, not "Soul, Southern soul, soul blues, Memphis soul[3]" I think soul covers everthing Redding recorded. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The reference only refers to Memphis soul (that is why it is at the end).--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Right, and if you have only Memphis soul sourced, then you should drop the other three until you can source them. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
They are sourced throughout the article, thanks.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the other three are sourced throughout the article, then why not the fourth? Also, per above, if they are sourced in the article then they should not be sourced in the infobox. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I moved the genres to the Style section, and only stated "Soul" in the infobox.--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Verifiability. - The infobox says Redding was a piano player. Is this explicated in the article body?
  • Yes
Where? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The information is available in this section (eg "where Redding sometimes played piano.").--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What I mean is, if Redding was a notable pianist, as the infobox currently suggests, then this should be expanded upon in the "Musicianship" section, which does not currently describe his piano playing. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 04:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing to describe. He just played piano.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If Redding's piano playing is not worth describing in the article then its not worth mentioning in the infobox. Did he play piano on any of his recordings ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, removed.--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • Terminology. - Singer-songwriter is not quite appropriate here. Try singer and songwriter.
  • Done
  • Notablility. - Is his work as a "talent scout" really notable enough for inclusion in the lead?
  • Yes
I disagree. Since it merits only one sentence fragment in the article body, I doubt it is notable enough for inclusion in the lead. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I can express many things with just one sentence. Redding was a notable talent scout, which needs to be mentioned in the lead.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give a few examples of notable people he scouted? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For example Arthur Conley, as stated in the article.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Puffery. - "he helped to craft the lean and powerful style of R&B". If this is not a direct quote, its an unencyclopedic paraphrase. What does "lean" mean in terms of musical style?
  • Why do you mean it is unencyclopedic? Did you ever opened an encyclopedia apart from Wikipedia? Lean means "short" (the classic R&B was really short-lived)
Per your above comment: "Did you ever opened an encyclopedia apart from Wikipedia?" FWIW, insulting reviewers is not going to help this FAC pass. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing insulting actually.--Tomcat (7) 19:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it was, and as I said above, if you regularly treat FAC reviewers with hostility this FAC will likely not pass. I assume you did not intend to strike my comment, but just in case you didn't know, never strike the comments of others. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, it wasn't at all.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarify. - Per: "his open-throated style", this might be a bit nebulous for non-musicians/singers. Clarify what this means in the article body and hopefully link to a relevant Wiki article.
  • It is a simple, plain explanation of his style (even for me). I also did not put this sentence.
  • Clarify. - "Redding later became equally popular among the broader American public", is equally an accurate word to use here? Seems like this type of demographic needs better sourcing.
  • It is explained in the text throughout that he was first successful among Blacks, then also among Whites
So, are you saying that that article explicates that by the end he was equally popular among white Americans as black Americans? I find this dubious. What is your source that he sold as many albums/tickets to non-blacks as he did to blacks? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:04, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article states that he performed in the western United States, etc. The peak was at the Monterey Pop Festival, where almost all, if not all, visitors were white.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not everyone at Monterey came to see Redding, in fact he was one of only three American black artists at the festival. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So what? Not everyone knew who would play, either. The aforementioned statement is true.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If its true then you should have no problems verifying it. According to my Rolling Stone encyclopedia, Redding was just starting to sell pop records at the time of his death after several years of popularity among mostly black Americans. The fact that the vast majority of his hits charted on the R&B chart, and not on the Billboard chart also supports my assertion. One Billboard hit after his death does mean he was "equally" popular among all demographics of the American music scene. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I changed "equally" to "also", hope you are satisfied now.--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose. - "Redding later performed in Paris and London among other venues". Paris and London are cities, not venues.
  • Done
  • Relevance. - "Redding's death devastated Stax, a label on the verge of bankruptcy, which later discovered that Atlantic Records owned the rights to his entire catalog." This datum is more about Stax and Atlantic then it is Redding, so while its a good piece of information for the article body, it does not belong in the lead.
  • I would have thought it is very important since it shows the aftermath of his death.--Tomcat (7) 10:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, its important, and it should be described in the article, not the lead. That's just my opinion really, its certainly not an actionable objection. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is a summary of the whole article that includes the most important aspects. Since this is the case in this article, I don't see any issues.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Verifiability. - It would seem that Entertainment Weekly is the article's only source for Redding's title of "King of Soul" over James Brown and Sam Cooke. I would like to see this verified with a more appropriate source.
  • I will search for better sources.--Tomcat (7) 16:01, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since "Respect" is arguably his first or second most famous song, I would mention it in the lead.
  • It is irrelevant what one individual thinks.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not when that person is an FAC reviewer. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, even if the FAC reviewer would like to push his own opinion. Try a Little Tenderness was much more important and influential then Respect.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I said "Respect" is arguably his first or second most famous song. Isn't there room in th elead for another song? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mentioned.--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consistency, accuracy. - Per this statement from the lead: "at age 15 Redding left school to support his family by working with Little Richard's backing band"; however, the article body states: "At age fifteen, Redding abandoned school to help his family financially ... Redding worked as a well digger, gas station attendant and guest musician in the following years."
  • And later states that he was a member of the Upsetters.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be missing the point here. The lead says he quit school to work with Richard, but the article says he worked as a well digger and gas station attendant before meeting Richard. He can't have done both right? Did he leave school, then work labour jobs before working with Richard, or did he leave school in order to work with Richard, as the lead suggests? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But it later states "and by performing at talent shows for prize money". The statement is netherless true.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Did Redding perform at talent shows with Little Richard? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, as he left the Upsetters.--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

  • Sourcing. - "Richard has soul, too. My present music has a lot of him in it."[7][8] Which source is the quote from and why do we need two cites for the quote?
  • The last is the closing reference, and the second last is the reference for this quote. In Wikipedia, there should be always one or several references at the end of a paragraph.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pronoun use. - "such as Little Willie Jones and bassist Eddie Ross.[9] His breakthrough came when he played Little Richard's" I assume the "his" refers to Redding, but since you've mentioned Eddie Ross most recently, the pronoun is referring to Ross.
  • ? It talks about Redding all the time, not about the random guy with the name Eddie Ross.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As it reads now the pronoun "his" refers back to the most recently used proper noun, which is Ross, not Redding. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you are correct, so I will leave it to someone who has more knowledge in English.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, insults will not help this FAC pass. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
...It was not an insult :/. But done.--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vague. - "Around the time when his tonsils were removed". When were they removed? Clarify this point.
  • It states "around the time". The book does not tell the exact date.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Confusing. - "Redding had doubts whether he would ever be able to sing, but his father suggested the opposite". Did his father suggest that Otis never had doubts, or was his father's opposite opinion that Otis would be able to sing again?
  • ? The latter of course.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Confusing. - "In 1958, Redding performed on disc jockey Hamp Swain's "The Teenage Party", a music contest at the Roxy Theatre, then at the Douglass Theatre" Did Redding perform at the Roxy or the Douglass?
Did Redding perform at both? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. It was relocated.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Its not clear that Redding performed at both. Try: " ... then at the Douglass Theatre where Redding also performed". ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarity. - "Jenkins later worked as lead guitarist and played with Redding on several gigs; with Jenkins' help, he won the contest every week." 1) Jenkins played with Redding during several gigs, not "on" gigs. 2) "he won the contest every week". Every week of what, a year, a decade, every week ever?
  • Fixed the first. I totally don't understand what you mean with the last question. If I say every week, it means one week, then the next week, and so on.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Every week for how long? A year, a decade? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Every century perhaps? Read my comment, please.--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per your comment: "If I say every week, it means one week, then the next week, and so on." And so on until when? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
None of the sources state the exact weeks. Many repeat that it lasted several weeks.--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose. - "Shortly afterwards", try "soon afterwards"
  • Citations, clarity. - "Redding was well-paid at about $25 per gig,[4][5] but he did not stay for long.[11]" 1) Why do we need three cites for 15 word sentence? 2) "he did not stay for long" is vague, can this be specified?
  • The question is which source supports particular claims, and this is the case. Not sure what you mean with your last question.--Tomcat (7) 19:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My last question means, if you know how long, then state it. Was it a week, a month, 3 months, 6 months etcetera. "he did not stay for long" is too vague and this needs to be clarified if possible. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't know, that is why I wrote "about".--Tomcat (7) 10:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you know approximately how long Redding played with Richard? Needs more research. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
He did not play with Richard, but with Richard's backing band. (I think, both never even met each other)--Tomcat (7) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


In progress ... more to come. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:51, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing
  • Rocklistsmusic.com. (currently ref #129) is not a WP:RS.
  • Several of the listed sources include publishing locations but most do not. Use one or the other for consistency.

Oppose from Maralia I am really happy to see this article being improved. It is in much better shape than the last time I saw it, but it still needs a thorough copyedit to address pervasive grammar issues. Examples follow:

  • I am skeptical about the statement that a frequently copyedited article should be again copyedited.--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know the current view on hyphenating "African American" when used as an adjective, but at the very least let's be consistent: it's used twice as an adjective in the article, once with and once without a hyphen.
  • Ditto with black vs Black.
  • In the lead we have 'the Upsetters" and then in Early life we have "The Upsetters". Similarly, The Pinetoppers vs the Pinetoppers; The Beatles vs the Beatles.
  • Considering wikilinking 'session' (in the lead—"An unscheduled appearance on a session" is rather vague).
  • I feel it is unnecessary but linked it anyway.--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Necessary because you didn't say what kind of session—recording session? jam session? Either clarifying in the text or linking would have been sufficient. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Willie Jones, frontman of Pat T. Cake and the Mighty Panters" - this should be Panthers, yes? Other instances throughout the article.
  • Not sure what you mean--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What I mean is you've misspelled Panthers. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "wrote his first songs including "She's Allright", "Tuff Enuff", "I'm Gettin' Hip" and "Gamma Lamma", former later released as a single." - not sure what you were going for with 'former later'.
  • The former was later--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "If you mean the first, say the first—'the former' would work with a list of two, but not a list of four. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Around this time he and The Pinetoppers attended a "Battle of the Bands" show in the Lakeside Park." - why 'the' Lakeside Park?
  • ""That's What My Heart Needs" and "Mary's Little Lamb" were recorded in June 1963, the latter was the only Redding song with both background singing and brass, but his worst-selling single." - Comma splice. The first comma should be a semicolon.
  • "The title track, recorded on September, the next year" - in September
  • "The majority of Redding songs after "Security" had a slow tempo, " - "Security" has not been mentioned at all.
  • How is the reader supposed to know what 'songs after "Security"' means, if they've not been made aware that "Security" even exists? Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were later recut in stereo during the Otis Blue-session" - no need to hyphenate this.
  • Not done, prefer hyphens--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no reason to use a hyphen here. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "including positive press in Los Angeles Times," - in the Los Angeles Times.
  • "On this version Redding was backed by Booker T. & the MG's," - this should be Booker T. & the M.G.'s.
  • "The song and the album were critically and commercially successful—former peaked at number 25" - the former peaked at.
  • Why not just "former"?--Tomcat (7) 15:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "play at the Fillmore Theatre around the late 1966" - 'around the late 1966' doesn't parse.
  • ? Clarification required--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed "around"--Tomcat (7) 15:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Three singles were lifted from the album, "Tramp", the first cut song, was released as a single in April, "Knock on Wood", and "Lovey Dovey", all three peaking at least in the top 60 charts on both the R&B and Pop charts." - this sentence is snaky and in the end just doesn't parse.
  • Okay, now we have this: "Three singles were lifted from the album: "Tramp", the first cut song, was released as a single in April, "Knock on Wood", and "Lovey Dovey". All three peaked at least in the top 60 charts on both the R&B and Pop charts." The colon is a good start, as is breaking it up into two sentences. Problems remain, though. After the colon you have both a list and a standalone sentence; we're still trying to stuff too much into one sentence. An improvement would be:
"...Three singles were lifted from the album: "Tramp", the first cut song, which was released as a single in April; "Knock on Wood"; and "Lovey Dovey"."
In the second sentence, need to fix '...in the top 60 charts..on both the...charts'. Solution:
"All three peaked at least in the top 60 on both the R&B and Pop charts." Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She recorded a solo-album" - no need to hyphenate this.
  • Why? Inexplicable hyphenation. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "written by Cropper and Redding while they were staying with friend, Earl "Speedo" Sims, " - either 'with a friend, Earl...' or 'with their friend Earl...'
  • "On the next day they were to play at the "Factory" nightclub" - why the quotes around Factory?
  • "The non-swimmer was unable to rescue the members, who did not immediately die." - unable to rescue who?
  • The members of what? There were 'members' of several groups on the plane. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "About the cause of the crash, James Brown argued in his autobiography, The Godfather of Soul, that he recommended Redding shortly before his departure not to drive on that outdated plane with such a ballast." - multiple problems here. 'About the cause of the crash' is a strange phrase to introduce one man's opinion. The rest of the sentence has grammatical issues, including that one does not drive on a plane, and that 'such a ballast' is not explained.
  • ? Changed to fly. ballast means the people or things on the plane.--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know what ballast means, but you've not made any reference to the plane being overloaded, so we have no context; the sentence still has multiple issues. It is also misplaced within the section, strangely in a paragraph about reactions to his death rather than the situation leading up to it. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Plans were made by Carla Thomas to record another duet album in December the same year, although Phil Walden disputed this claim." - This sentence asserts that Thomas did make plans and Walden disputed this. If the assertion is that Carla claims making plans but Walden disputes it, this needs a rewrite.
  • Done I hope--Tomcat (7) 21:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to several advertising copies, he had around 200 suits, 400 pairs of shoes, and he earned about $35,000 per week for his concerts." - 200 suits and 400 pairs of shoes, and he earned...
  • You've fixed that problem, but there is another: 'copy' is a mass noun much like the word 'furniture'. Just as you can't say 'a furniture' or 'seven furnitures', you can't say 'an advertising copy' or 'seven advertising copies'. A simple way to fix this is "According to several advertisements". Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Early on Redding copied the singing style of Little Richard, one of his role models, but gradually developed his own style." - but he gradually...
  • "He studied contemporary music of the Beatles, Bob Dylan." - multiple issues. Did he study contemporary music such as or including these two groups or the contemporary music of these groups? Also needs to be 'The Beatles and Bob Dylan'.
  • "Redding appeared a little bit clumsy on stage, and he sometimes received advice from Rufus Thomas." - this sentence begs the question: what kind of advice?
  • A simple one--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I reworded the sentence.--Tomcat (7) 15:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wexler later explained Redding was well received by the audience, as his delivered strong message was noticeable" - 'his delivered strong message' doesn't parse.
  • Still problematic. "strong delivered message" doesn't mean anything, and 'noticeable' is a weak descriptor especially in the presence of the word 'strong'. Can you not simply say "as he delivered strong messages"? Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Booker T. Jones, an American musician, described Otis' singing" - by this point in the article (the Style section), we are well aware who Jones was; he doesn't need a link here or a description.
  • "In his early career, Redding mostly covered songs from popular artists, such as Little Richard, Sam Cooke, or Solomon Burke." - and Solomon Burke.
  • Done (error introduced by the "copyeditors")--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He often worked on lyrics with other musicians, such as Earl Sims, his brother Rodgers, Sylvester Huckaby, Phil Walden or Steve Cropper" - again, and Steve Cropper.
  • Done (error introduced by the "copyeditors")--Tomcat (7) 12:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the time of regeneration, Redding wrote about 30 songs in a session lasting about two weeks." - what is 'the time of regeneration'?
  • I linked to this page accordingly.--Tomcat (7) 15:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am aware of the definition of the word, but how does this word apply to Redding? When is his purported 'time of regeneration'? Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarified a bit--Tomcat (7) 21:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to the journalist Ruth Rob, author of the liner notes for the 1993 box-set" - this is Ruth Robinson per the source.
  • "Otis Redding favored short and simple lyrics over long and complicated; When asked whether" - no caps after a semicolon: 'long and complicated; when asked'
  • The items in the bibliography are all in the format 'lastname, firstname' so the items in the references should be as well.
  • Done I hope.--Tomcat (7) 16:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The references and bibliography are also in need of some minor attention:

  • "The RS 500 Greatest Songs of All Time". Rolling Stone. Archived from the original on June 25, 2008. Retrieved February 14, 2012. - this source has a date. Many other online sources have dates that should be listed as well.
  • Please explain what you mean.--Tomcat (7) 12:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I mean that you have listed accessdates, but in many cases have not listed publication dates. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doing...
  • I cleaned up the references.--Tomcat (7) 20:59, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "CHI68A0053". National Transport Safety Board. Retrieved September 4, 2011. - the agency is the National Transportation Safety Board.
  • "Otis Redding remembered". Cincinnati.com. Retrieved May 14, 2012. - this source has an author.
  • Done, but you have a double period now (no need to use a period after initial). Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done, but I am unsure whether "Foley, Ryan J" or Foley J, Ryan" is correct
  • "Death of the King of Soul". Entertainment Weekly (252). December 9, 1994. - this source has an author.
  • "21) Otis Redding". Rolling Stone. Wenner Media LLC. Archived from the original on June 20, 2011. Retrieved August 20, 2011. - this source has an author.
  • Done, also fixed a similar ref.--Tomcat (7) 21:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eyewitness Tells of Otis Redding's Violent Death". Jet. December 28, 1967. - this source has an author.
  • Done, but lastname first please. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The link for the last cite ( "Major Exhibition Commemorating 40th Anniversary of Otis Redding's Passing on Display at the Georgia Music Hall of Fame in Macon") does not work (it takes you to the home page); can the article be found at the internet archive?
  • I can't find it anywhere.--Tomcat (7) 12:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I removed this passage.--Tomcat (7) 15:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have not listed everything I found; I only skimmed the Legacy section, and found similar grammar issues there. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this needs an independent copyedit or two before it's ready. Maralia (talk) 03:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, this is a very long review, so I will proceed carefully.--Tomcat (7) 10:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are various places where you refute the need for context ("Security"; 'members'; 'such a ballast"; "time of regeneration"). I have attempted to elaborate in each instance above, but I don't understand the reluctance to tell the reader what you mean.
I know that it can be really difficult to catch grammar errors in something you've read a hundred times, but I should think that this (incomplete) list of errors would have been enough to overcome any skepticism regarding the need for a thorough copyedit. A few of the problems, like the improper usage of 'copy' in the context of advertising copy, are wholly understandable. However, basic English grammar—such as the proper use of hyphens, conjunctions, and articles with nouns—should not be issues of contention at FAC, requiring lengthy back-and-forth. This, again, is why I recommend a comprehensive independent copyedit. Maralia (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your review. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 21:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and please withdraw to obtain an independent copyedit-- per the length of this review and per Maralia's comments, this article was clearly unprepared for FAC, and the faster route to the bronze star will be via an independent copyedit off-FAC. I jumped to the bottom of the article to check prose, and easily found this sentence: Beside the songwriting, Redding also arranged horn lines, always humming to show the horn section what notes he had in his mind. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No way. It should stay here as I want to see it on the mainpage, 10th December. Please add what you don't like, thank you. I don't want to wait another one year :D. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 15:30, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, you "jumped" to the bottom (why I don't know), and you found only one sentence? What exactly is wrong with " Beside the songwriting, Redding also arranged horn lines, always humming to show the horn section what notes he had in his mind"? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 15:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Realistically speaking, considering the support that Imagine (song) has for December 8, the chances of this running on December 10 are not high (too similar). I jump to the bottom because I do not intend to copyedit your entire article, only highlight random issues. Beside --> besides. Always is redundant. In his mind --> in mind. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is ironical that nobody saw these issues in the several months.--Tomcat (7) 16:06, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


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