Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/New England/archive1

New England

My reasons for nominating this article are the following:

• it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's very best work;
• it is well-written, comprehensive, stable, neutral, and factually accurate;
• it has a good and well-organized table of contents, as well as a concise lead;
• it has many beautiful and appropriate images with concise captions;
• it has various sub-topics, and maintains a decent length without going into tangential detail;
• and, finally, it is very well-cited.

Where I anticipate some disagreement:

• some of the prose may need some rewriting -- I copyedit what I can, but my time is limited;
• and some material might be moved into sub-articles.

I look forward to hearing all of your comments. I feel that this article is a good candidate for featured article status; if there are any problems, I imagine that they can be fixed very quickly and with little effort. Thanks for your consideration. --AaronS 14:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Conditional Support. This article is very nice, but I think some things remain:
  • Is "Regional population layout" subsection really useful? Why not remove it and move the three regions directly to 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3?
  • There are a lot of stubby paragraphs that could probably be merged, both in the article and in the lead.
  • The references sections goes below "Notes" not above.

Overall though, a very nice article! -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 14:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I will fix those problems as soon as I can. Thanks. --AaronS 15:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support with reservations. And rather minor ones at that.
  • The list of largest cities in New England in the "Urban New England" section needs a reference (either to an external source or another referenced list in Wikipedia). Right now it's unclear when and where the82.6.163.253 16:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) figures are taken from (2000 U.S. census? State fact sheets? Accurate as of 2006?).
  • The "Major Professional Sports Teams" section could be better organized. Right now it has the appearance of a bunch of items slapped together with no real flow or paragraph structure.

On the whole a really great article that is informative and well referenced. I had never stopped to realize until now how well-written the article is despite having it on my watchlist for anti-vandalism purposes! - Pal 15:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Object – It starts off pretty well, before dipping.
  1. Sports and media are loosely covered.
  2. Prose is choppy in some places eg. New England is a region of the United States located in the northeastern corner of the country. It is comprised of the states of Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Vermont. The two sentences can be merged. 2. 'Together, the Mid-Atlantic... As a non-US resident, I'm not sure what mid-Atlantic refers to. having some context of it in the prose would be helpful without having to click links. Another example of choppy prose would be the opening sentences of the second para of the History section. One more: "Cambridge, Massachusetts has Harvard Square and Harvard University."
  3. MoS for units have not been followed. (1,917 m (6,288 ft)) Use   to insert a non-breaking space between a number and its unit.
  4. More info on climate, flora, fauna and geology needed. A good geographical map would be useful.
  5. =Coastal New England= reads like a tourist brochure.
  6. =Urban New England= could do with some more content.
  7. "Lawrence-Methuen-Salem MA NH" -- not very helpful to non-US readers.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 18:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Object:
  • The lack of a close-up map of the region is very noticeable in its absence.
  • "unique among U.S. geographic regions in that it is also a former political entity. " What about the Kingdom of Hawaii? And maybe the Republic of Texas?
  • "it would later oppose the War of 1812" The region was unified in opposition?
  • Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source.
  • "In the 18th century and the early 19th century, New England was still considered to be a very distinct region of the country, as it is today." Bad writing.
  • "During the War of 1812, there was a limited amount of talk of secession from the Union" citation needed.
  • "and as obvious as the region's unique dialect." You don't mention a regional dialect anywhere, so we don't know what the European influence there is.
  • "Try getting rid of paragraphs of under three sentences. Merge them into other, appropriate pargraphs. Andrew Levine 20:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Response: (1) I'll try looking for one of those. (2) Neither of those were regions; New England has always been a region encompassing several states, governments, or colonies. (3) Yes, the region was unified. (4) True 'dat. (5) Yes, that is bad writing, but it's easily fixable. (6) There was talk of secession during the War of 1812; this is a well-known historical fact, so it shouldn't be hard to cite. (7) The regional dialect is discussed in the cultural roots section, so I'm not sure about what you're talking about. (8) Paragraph merging seems very appropriate. Thanks for your comments. --AaronS 20:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about #7, that's my mistake. As for #3, if true, it needs citation. #2 requires some clarification in the article on what "region" means in this sense, like add "multi-state region". I hope to support soon. Andrew Levine 20:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

No worries. The information relating to the War of 1812 can be found in just about any discussion of the war; it was a big deal at the time that the New England states refused to support it. So, finding citations should be easy. As "region" is concerned, would you be satisfied with "region of the United States," wikilinked to Regions of the United States? Regions typically aren't defined on the same grounds as the political divisions of the states. New England was a region before there were any states or anything resembling a state. --AaronS 21:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Object I began by fixing what I thought were several large faults, then ran into some I couldn't fix ... one example being the leading figure (of the flags) that displays very poorly ... and decided just to "object." The prose is not just poor, it is consistently poor, and in some sections the material included seems to be just bits selected at random. Sfahey 22:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

After reading the subsequent comments, I went back and read the thing more fully, through to the end. The middle sections are, contrary to my blanket statement above, quite well written, especially as they manage to tie the region together nicely. I still "object", though. Two particulars to show what I meant by "random" bits, from just one section: I don't think the History section even mentions the Pilgrims as such, and out of nowhere comes "after the Pequot War," which also hasn't been mentioned. Sfahey

• (talking to myself here) I made several "improvements," including fixing several things raised my me and others. What is good here is VERY good, but more significant, unfortunately, is that the substandard stuff is VERY bad. Specifically:

1. the goofy "Entertainment and Music" section (Dick Dale????)

2. the "History" section ending at 1812

3. the "Population" section ignoring Maine, NH, and Vt.

If it doesn't make it this time, this one will be back. Sfahey 02:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Response: Thanks for your comments and edits, Sfahey. I have a question, though: (1) what's wrong with Dick Dale? As for the history section, I agree that there's a problem. I'll look at the various state histories and see if I can pull something together to cover 1812-2006. The population section does also seem to ignore northern New England. --AaronS 13:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Dale was born in Mass., but lived and made music in Calif. I'd think he might merit a line in a several page "Entertainment" section, but to have him and that punk group represent a region that has the Boston Symphony, J. Geils, Jack Lemmon, Bette Davis, Aerosmith, Katherine Hepburn, etc. is a large stretch. Oh, if you add stuff to the end of the history section: cyclical economic woes have been a big thing there, with the rise and fall of whaling, the demise of most of the farming, the high tech boom and bust, and the near-complete demise of the big textile mills in the 20th c. Sometime I'll get around to adding a Geology section if this doesn't make it to FA this time. Sfahey 21:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Those are all excellent points. Thanks for hopping on board and helping out. Your comments and edits are helpful. According to this, Dale did not leave MA until his senior year of high school. --AaronS 00:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Nicely written. Good choice of topics. Does not simply rehash what's better covered in articles on individual states. Treats the region and its coherence well. Fg2 00:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support I believe that the smaller issues can be resolved easily. Overall, it's a great article and I believe it meets criteria for a featured article. Hello32020 12:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• Object Problems throughout, some samples given.
  • Weasle words (examples): Robert Frost, who was born in California, is almost always associated with New England; and New Englanders generally support and In the southwestern part of the state, many Connecticut residents support the New York Yankees and other New York pro teams.
  • Lacking inline citations and rigorous referencing (examples only, indicating need for reviewing entire text - some of these border on POV as well):
    • Thanksgiving day high school football rivalries date back to the 19th century, and the Harvard-Yale rivalry is the oldest in college football. ... Due to the steep grade of Heartbreak Hill, it is considered one of the most difficult and prestigious marathons of its kind.
    • Literature, unreferenced entirely.
    • Cultural roots, completely unreferenced.
    • According to US News and World Report, 8 of the nation's top-50 universities and 13 of its top-50 liberal arts colleges are located in New England. Cite please (USNews rankings change every year).
  • Prose - random sample: In northern New England, New Hampshire's White Mountains are popular ski destinations, as well as offering for camping and hiking.
  • Comprehensive: considering the wealth of history in New England, the Notable places section is disappointing and reads like a tourist guide rather than an encyclopedia.
    • How did Canterbury make this list? What is the criteria? At the pre-college level, New England is home to a majority of the most prominent American independent schools (also known as private schools), such as Phillips Academy in Massachusetts, St. Paul's School and Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hampshire, and Canterbury School, Choate Rosemary Hall, Hotchkiss School, and Loomis Chaffee in Connecticut, ...
  • Non-encyclopedic content: Bars and pubs, especially those with Irish themes, are popular social venues. Again, reads like a tour guide, rather than an encyclopedia entry.

The article needs to be thoroughly referenced and brought up to encyclopedic, rather than tourist guide, standard. Sandy 22:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Sandy 22:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for those who voted to support this FAC, as it was encouraging, and thanks especially to those who provided well thought-out and detailed evaluations and critiques. All of your suggestions are sound and helpful, and will certainly keep me and other editors happily occupied for quite some time. Best of luck to you all. --AaronS 13:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)