Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Myles Standish/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:19, 16 April 2010 [1].

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Myles Standish

Myles Standish (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): Historical Perspective (talk) 19:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• Featured article candidates/Myles Standish/archive1

I've recently given this article an overhaul, adding narrative and images. It was peer reviewed here. I think it now meets FA criteria. Would appreciate any thoughts and comments. Thanks, Historical Perspective (talk) 19:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Alt text is not currently part of the FA criterion, but it's probably a bit on the long side in this article; you could probably trim it a bit. Ucucha 21:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• Response. Yeah, I probably went a bit overboard with the alt text. I've shortened them. Historical Perspective (talk) 17:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comments -
• what makes http://www.northamericanforts.com/East/masouth.html a reliable source?

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Response. Good point. I've found a published source that does the trick and switched it out. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 17:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Review by Charles Edward

• General
  • Your lead has five paragraphs; WP:Lead suggests a maximum of four. You should try to integrate one of those paragraphs into the others, or remove it.
  • In reading the lead, one thing strikes me as missing. What was his religion? Did he hold the same beliefs as the other pilgrims, or was he more of a hired gun?
  • ..."he had married his second wife, Barbara..." Any idea what her maiden name was?
  • A link to the Massachusetts portal may be appropriate in the see also section.
  • Perhaps a link of the first mention of Merchant Adventurers to Company of Merchant Adventurers to New Lands?
• Images
  • The images are all on the right. Stagger a few to the left, perhaps the image of the mayflower, the lithograph, and the lighthouse? See WP:IMAGE for guidance
  • Image size is also being forced. This too is discouraged by WP:IMAGE, unless there is a good reason to do so.
  • File:Beleg.Oostende11.jpg has no source listed
• Citations needed
  • Need a ref here: "When he embarked with them in the summer of 1620, he brought with him his wife Rose."
  • "The Mayflower first made landfall at the tip of Cape Cod, now the site of Provincetown, Massachusetts."
  • "As captain of the militia, Standish regularly drilled his men in the use of pikes and muskets."
  • "Having defended Plymouth from Native Americans and other Englishmen, Standish's last significant expedition was against the French. "
  • "Standish built a house and settled there around 1628."
  • "He was buried in Duxbury's Old Burying Ground, now known as the Myles Standish Cemetery."
  • "The first of these monuments was also the largest."
  • "A second, smaller monument was placed over the alleged site of Myles Standish's grave in 1893. "
  • "Bradford found the latter particularly disturbing and, in 1628, ordered Standish to lead an expedition to arrest Morton."
• Prose
  • "Standish's true-life role in defending Plymouth Colony (and the sometimes brutal tactics he employed) were largely over-written by the fictionalized character created by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow in his book The Courtship of Miles Standish." - "over-written" may not be the right word here. Maybe "ignored" or "covered up" or "left out"?

• Prose looks good
• All other images check out
• Sources look good
• Alt text present

Very nice article! Its a great read. My items here are pretty minor. If you address them I'd be glad to support. Good job! —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 14:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Response Thanks very much for your critique of the article. I think I've covered your suggestions.

• General:

• I've taken out one of the paragraphs from the lead and incorporated that text down below in the "Establishment of Plymouth Colony" section.
• I added some text regarding Standish's religion (it's unknown, but at least I've explained that up front now).
• Barbara's maiden name in unknown too. But I've added mention of that.
• Added a link to the Massachusetts portal
• I came across that page on the Merchant Adventurers and was intrigued, but honestly, I'm not sure if it was the same group. "Adventurers" was a common term for investors. I'm not sure the Pilgrims' group was the same as this company. So, when in doubt, I decided not to include the link.

• Images:

• Good point on the images being all on the right. I moved the ones to the left that you suggested.
• Three of the images were forced. One was by accident, so I fixed that. The Nemasket expedition lithograph I enlarged a bit because it's a very detailed image and could hardly be seen at the default size. The Standish portrait size is forced to maintain the infobox at a reasonable size.
• Sadly, there's an entire category of photos on the Commons regarding the Siege of Ostend and none of them have source info. Drat! So, I used an image of the English commanding general instead. I just thought there should be some image related to Standish's military service in Holland.

• Citations: I've added citations in every instance you suggested.
• Prose: I think the word I was looking for was "obscured." I've changed it.

I think that about covers it. Any further suggestions, let me know. And thanks for your help! Historical Perspective (talk) 23:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Support, looks great! Keep up the good work. :) —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Support All my concerns were addressed. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC) Comments this is a fascinating article. I enjoyed reading it, and I'll be happy to support when prose issues are dealt with. I hate to be a spoil-sport on this, really I do, there are simply several areas of rough prose or awkwardness that you could fix easily to improve the readability. What is interesting to me about this problem is that it occurs only in a few sections of the article.

weak verb constructions in lead and first section

On February 17, 1621, he was officially voted the first commander of the Plymouth Colony militia and was continually re-elected to that position for the remainder of his life. On February 17, 1621, the Plymouth Colony militia elected him as its first commander, and continued to re-elect him to that position for the remainder of his life.

repetition

in the first second, second sentence. This could be two sentences, which would reduce the occurrence of the word "and", making it more readable.

Condensing multiple sentences into one:

The passengers of the Mayflower established a colony usually referred to at the time as "New Plymouth" (although the name and spelling often varied). The site of their first settlement is now Plymouth, Massachusetts. The first settlers of Plymouth Colony are commonly known in the United States as "Pilgrims."

In what is now Plymouth, Massachusetts, the passengers of the Mayflower—later known in the United States as Pilgrims—established a colony contemporaneously referred to as "New Plymouth" (although the name and spelling varied).

exception -- A 12-year truce was declared between Spain and the Dutch Republic in 1609 which (if Standish was still serving with the English army by that time) would have put an end to Standish's active service. // The 12-year truce between Spain and the Dutch Republic, declared in 1609, would have put an end to Standish's service, although scholars are uncertain if Standish was still in active service. OR The length of Standish's service has yet to be determined, but a 12-year truce between Spain and the Dutch Republic, declared in 1609, would have ended it.

Is it certain he was no longer inmilitary service in 1609? a Just because there was a truce doesn't mean he did nt go off and sell his sword to someone else.

How does one appear firmly? Do you mean certainly?

Should not these paras Standish first appears firmly in the written record in 1620 when, living in Leiden, Holland, he was hired by the Pilgrims to act as their advisor on military matters.[19] At that time he already was using the title of "Captain." When considering candidates for this important position, the Pilgrims had at first hoped to engage Captain John Smith. Smith had been one of the founders of the English colony at Jamestown, Virginia, had explored and mapped the North American coast and welcomed the opportunity, when approached by the Pilgrims, to return to the New World.[20] His experience made him an attractive candidate. However, the Pilgrims ultimately passed on Smith partly because his price was too high but also because they feared that his fame and bold character might lead him to become a dictator.[20]
Standish, having lived in Leiden for some time, was apparently already known to the Pilgrims.[15] When he embarked with them in the summer of 1620, he brought with him his wife Rose.[21]

Seeking a military advisor, the Pilgrims had at first hoped to engage Captain....the Pilgrims initially had hoped to engage //or// the Pilgrims at first had hoped to engage.... Smith had helped to found the English colony... and had explored and mapped.... When the Pilgrims approached him to return to the New World, Smith expressed an interest. His experience made him an attractive candidate, but the Pilgrims ultimate decided against his candidacy: his price was too high and his fame and bold character might lead him to become a dictator. Standish, who first appears clearly in the written record in 1620 was living in Leiden (Holland), with his wife Rose. The Pilgrims hired him to act as their military adviser. When he embarked with them in the summer of 1620, he brought with him his wife.

50 would survive the first winter. .... Only 50 survived the first winter.

Standish tended to Bradford during this time and it was the beginning of a bond and decades-long friendship...// Standish tended to Bradford during his illness and this was the beginning of a decades-long friendship.

• Do you see my points here? These are problems throughout. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Response Yes, I see your points. I think, by and large, the problem is using the passive voice. I have often fallen into that trap. (Or should I say...I fall into that trap often!) So, I've used your wording suggestions in just about all of the suggestions you made above. A few comments:

• "On February 17, 1621..." replaced with your wording. Much better. Thanks.
• "The passengers of the Mayflower established..." Replaced this paragraph with your wording. Again, much better.
• "A 12-year truce was declared..." These sentences were really clunky, I agree. I was never really happy with them. Your re-wording is a vast improvement. I've inserted it.
• To answer your question on his service after 1609...there are no records to indicate what he was doing, so I haven't ventured a guess here. All we know is that, according to some of the chroniclers of Plymouth Colony, he served in the Dutch War in the first decade of the 17th century. How long is anyone's guess.
• Took out "firmly." I realize an adverb wasn't even necessary here.
• I used most of your re-wording of the paragraph about Standish being hired and Captain Smith being an alternate. I did not switch around the order of the sentences because I think to start off the paragraph by abruptly switching the subject to Smith would be jarring. So, the previous paragraph ends with Standish, we pick up the next sentence with "Standish first appears in the written record..." and then I use your wording re: Smith.
• "50 would survive..." got rid of that, replaced with yours.
• "Standish tended to Bradford..." same as above.
• Having made nearly all the edits you suggested, I then went through the article looking for other examples of the passive voice (searching for the words "was," "were," and "would"). I removed the passive voice and re-wrote several other sentences which I think has helped.

Let me know if you see other problem spots and I'll gladly fix. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Much better. I did a few more tweaks, added some links (Twelve Years Truce, etc). Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:16, 13 April 2010 (UTC) Comment - William Brewster (Pilgrim) was the Elder of the Scrooby congregation; was imprisoned before they left England for Leiden; continued as Elder in Plymouth until his death. Although the focus of the article is on Standish, somehow the article should incorporate Brewster and his role. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• Response. I've added mention of Brewster in the "Historical background" section. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 16:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks. A couple of nitpicks so far, though I've haven't read to the end yet.

• "On February 17, 1621, the Plymouth Colony militia elected him as its first commander and continued to re-elect him to that position for the remainder of his life.[3] Later, he served as an agent of Plymouth Colony in England, as assistant governor, and as treasurer of Plymouth Colony.[4]" - confusing because later doesn't seem to flow logically after "remainder of his life."
• "By the 1640s, Standish relinquished his role as a man of action and settled into a quieter life on his Duxbury farm" - can "man of action be reworded?
• "In 1620, the group embarked on a venture to establish a colony in North America, desiring to create a community free from foreign influences of the Dutch and where they could still practice their religion freely." Awkward sentence
• "In what is now Plymouth, Massachusetts, the passengers of the Mayflower—later known in the United States as Pilgrims—established a colony referred to at the time as "New Plymouth" (although the name and spelling varied)." Tricky here. You've explained that not all passengers of the Mayflower were separatists (in fact some were Anglican) but this sentence indicates the passengers were Pilgrims which many consider to be synonymous with Puritan. Somehow, needs a rework.
• "Anxious to prepare themselves in the event of hostilities, on February 17, 1621, the men of the colony met and officially formed a militia consisting of all able-bodied men. They elected Standish their commander, ratifying by democratic process the position that the leaders of the colony had already assigned him.[3] " Needs a little clarification. Wasn't Standish the commander prior to this event? If not who was?

• This all very nit-pi:cky, . Overall I'm enjoying reading the article, and hope to finish tomorrow. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• Response. Nit-picky is good. Thanks for the feedback. I've made the following changes:

• "On February 17..." I think simply taking out "later" fixes the problem here.
• "By the 1640s..." Changed "man of action" to "active soldier" which I think is better.
• "In 1620, the group embarked..." Re-worked this into two separate sentences and I think it's clearer now.
• "In what is now Plymouth..." Very good point here. Depending on the source, "Pilgrim" can either apply strictly to Separatists or also to all the first settlers of Plymouth (both Separatist and Anglican). I've explained this in the text and I hope it's clear.
• "Anxious to prepare..." Re-worded this a bit to stress that he already had the position, but that the militia was confirming it by demcratic vote.

• Hope this addresses your concerns. Glad you're enjoying the article. Let me know about other changes as you continue reading. Historical Perspective (talk) 11:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• A few more:

• "As Standish and Hobbamock burst into the shelter, Pokanokets inside attempted to flee. English outside fired their muskets, wounding a Pokanoket man and woman who were later taken to Plymouth to be treated. Inside, Standish discovered that Corbitant had left Nemasket and that Tisquantum was unharmed.[37]" – somewhat confusing to read with repetitious use of inside/outside. Try to reword slightly.
• "In an effort to show they were not intimidated, Bradford sent the snakeskin back filled with gunpowder and shot." I'd consider flipping the clauses in this sentence because the pronoun appears to refer to the antecedent in the previous sentence.

*"To fully surround the settlement, the palisade would have to be more than half a mile (or 0.8 km).[40]" This was a bit of an awkward section. Needs some tweaking.

• "The mission had a personal side for Standish." Reword – not literally a personal side, but maybe a personal aspect.
• "Plymouth Colony had been granted rights to maintain a trading post at present-day Castine, Maine, on the Penobscot River. It had been captured from the French by the English in 1628." Another section with some short choppy sentences; try combining some of them.

• I'm fairly familiar with this topic, but nonetheless know more now than yesterday! Nicely researched and presented. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• Response. Very glad to hear it's informative. I've made the following changes.

• "As Standish and Hobbamock..." I re-phrased most of the paragraph. I think it reads more clearly now.
• "In an effort to..." Ha. Good point. It sounded like the snakeskin was intimidated. Fixed it.
• "To fully surround..." Re-worded.
• "The mission had..." Used "aspect."
• "Plymouth Colony had been granted..." Yes, this was very clunky. I re-worked the paragraph so that events are told in chronological order. I think it makes more sense now.

• Thanks again for your comments! Historical Perspective (talk) 23:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• Make sure the dates in the text are formated according to WP:MOSDATES. In some cases I believe I saw commas that should be removed. Sorry I meant to post this earlier and haven't had time today to re-read the article to verify whether or not I'm correct. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
• I'll have one more read through tomorrow to be certain no other prose issues jump out at me. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

• Additional comments: please add the date of Wordsworth's book.
• I've done a light copyedit to about half the article and will swing through and finish tomorrow. However, in my view it may need someone else to tweak the prose. Because of my familiarity with the topic it may seem more clear to me than to a reader who comes to this without any knowledge of the subject. I'll support with the caveat that the prose gets a good brush up as soon as possible. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

• 'Comments
  • proscribe --> subscribe is a huge vocabulary error. Please remeber this.
  • I altered one instance of Narrangansett (?) --> Narragansett, but then found several others. Is yours an alternate spelling? • Ling.Nut 03:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Good catch on "proscribe." Definitely the wrong word. "Narrangansett" was a typo. I corrected the other two instances. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 10:34, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.