Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Music of Minnesota/archive1

Music of Minnesota

Had it on peer review for awhile and got one response, which was helpful. I think this article covers everything well, and is well-referenced. Thanks for your consideration and comments. Tuf-Kat 04:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Does anyone have any thoughts about the "music education" section? I went into more detail than I have in other articles, and I think it turned out nice. Do you like having the details about public school curricula and University of Minnesota degree programs, or does it seem like too much? Tuf-Kat

I liked it. Jkelly 04:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Especially liked this one. Jkelly 04:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Many thanks! Tuf-Kat
• Support - thorough, well written, well sourced. (love the Romeo and Juliet image). The music education section - yep, liked it. It's relevant because it shows what the education system is doing for the future. Rossrs 06:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support Well done, fixed "The Time" link for you to avoid dab page. Coffeeboy 13:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
• Object. Unless I'm mistaken, the lead sentence should be edited: "The music of Minnesota has produced many popular performers." Did the music produce performers? Next, if the main subject of the article is/are the musical style(s) of the state, then the History section should probably precede the section that enumerates famous venues, since the article is more about the musical history than about the concert halls. Also, the article about Prince suggests he exemplifies something called the Minneapolis sound, but this Minnesota music article doesn't link to that one. The article is certainly interesting and has citations, etc., so I'd be prepared to support with some copyediting, for what it's worth. Kaisershatner 16:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Lead fixed, I'll take care of the Prince thing in a little while. I disagree with putting history first. I don't think that's standard in Topic of Place articles (see Culture of the United States and Politics of the United States for two examples), and it isn't in music of Maryland, the only other US state "music of". I think the "music of Minnesota" should be about music and how it interacts with the lives of Minnesotans, so putting venues and education and stuff first makes sense, with the history at the end for those who are interested (and a separate music history of Minnesota if someone feels so inclined). Tuf-Kat 19:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I think the Minneapolis sound is better covered now. Tuf-Kat 21:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Good changes. I can see your logic about the section order. Thanks for your responsiveness. Kaisershatner 02:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC) I am now Mildly Supportive rather than against; my only reservation is that I'm ignorant of the subject and can't vouch for comprehensiveness or POV. I think it's a good article. Kaisershatner 14:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Object There is quite a bit of information packed into a tight format, and for the most part clearly organizaed by section, however, there is also an overall lack of context, significant omissions in coverage of specific styles and periods, and imprecise, vague writing in several areas. So, my objection is based on comprehensiveness. Unfortunately, I feel this reads more like an annotated list of "music-related Minnesota topics" (such as I might find in tourist brochure) than a tight summary of the Minnesota music scene.

• no mention (summary) of what characterizes music in Minnesota What are the influencing factors on music? Local music is shaped by its cultural and geographic context, and this should be summarized. Primary industries, demographics, ethnic composition, climate, public attitudes, laws, and so forth, whatever applies. I get no sense whatsover of the musical climate. (The Blush quotes indicate what I'm referring to.) Also, I understand the Twin Cities is the focal point, but what's going on in the rest of the state...?
  • You want me to find sources for the ethnic composition of Minnesotan musicians? Much of what you are asking for is simply unstudied and/or unpublished, or if published, is simply unavailable (both directly and indirectly -- my library can't find any evidence of books on Minnesota and music, and neither can google or any other web source I've tried). The Blush quote is very nice to have, but even that is specific to Minneapolis. WRT the rest of the state, I'll see what I can do, but I doubt much can be added inline with WP:V and WP:CITE. Tuf-Kat 22:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• hip hop and electronic music should be their own sections "Recent styles" is an understatement. Both hip hop and electronic music have been major cultural and economic forces in new music for at least two decades; any discussion of the current and recent music scene of a US urban region has to include equal mention of these genres. Specifically, the DJ and rave scenes should be addressed in more than a sentence.
  • Hip hop and electronic music have "major cultural and economic forces in new music for at least two decades" in much of the country, but Minnesota is not now and has never been particularly associated with either one. I'll see about expanding on them, but I would oppose splitting that section -- for one thing, I'd wager that virtually all verifiable info on both topics is specific to Minneapolis, and so would be more appropriate at the as-yet uncreated music of Minneapolis. Tuf-Kat
• no music media section There are some mentions of radio stations, and nothing on local print (or Web sites). Every US city has at least one alternative weekly paper that tends to cover local music more heavily than the dailies. Also, zines (and web sites), and college radio stations. Local music media is an integral part of any local scene, as much so as the venues.
  • I think I've addressed this objection. Tuf-Kat
• The history section jumps decades in an apparently arbitrary way There are unsettling gaps in coverage. A relatively detailed account of the 1850 to the turn of the centure, jumps to WWII with one artist mentioned, and stops. If nothing noteworthy happened in the many missing decades (the Andrews Sisters alone describe Minnesota music for 50 years?), this should be accounted for in the text.
  • I don't see how I could possibly cite a source for the lack of something happening, and there are no sources available (I don't doubt that somewhere in the world, more detailed information of music history exists, but it isn't on the web, available in my local library or other connected library systems, and, if published, is not publicized anywhere on the web AFAICT. I could fill in some of the gaps some basic statements about what American music in general was doing at the time -- for example, I'm positive minstrel shows were very popular for awhile, but I have no source to prove that in Minnesota. Would that be considered wrong? Tuf-Kat
• many vague statements There are numerous generalizations and throwaway statements that make the article seem hastily written or based on incomplete research. Examples:

The music of Minnesota has played a role in the historical and cultural development of Minnesota. This is the lead sentence, and says nothing but the obvious.

It's the lead section, it should be saying the obvious. The problem is that it's very difficult to use the article's title in a sentence. Any suggestions?

home to thousands of local bands - No doubt there are many bands, thousands, but this is not developed in the text. Where are the "thousands" of bands playing, where are they, what are they all up to?

The footnote gives some details in that regard, but I don't know what you're looking for here. The fact that local and unnotable bands are numerous is notable because many Minnesotans presumably interact with these bands. This article should not tell the reader what these bands are up to because, in most cases, this would be unverifiable and without importance. Tuf-Kat

widely respected in the classical music world, and has toured widely - "Respect" is unsupported, and "toured widely" where, in the state, US, world?

Rewrote this paragraph. Tuf-Kat

has also aired many local music tracks - What does that mean? Many?

Rewrote this paragraph. Tuf-Kat

many choose to take it as an elective in high school - Many? Is there a higher percentage here than elsewhere in the country?

I don't know. Probably not, but irrelevant anyway. The point of that sentence is pretty clear, I think -- music education is obligatory in elementary and middle school and optional in high school. Tuf-Kat

European settlers to Minnesota brought their own tradition of folk and classical music. - Polish folk music? Britsh? Greek? Who are the "European settlers", which folk and classical musics?

Out of a certain level of frustration, dance music... - How is this frustration established?

Fixed. Tuf-Kat 22:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• other questions A couple other things I wondered about include: Blues scene? Absolutely no country? Opera (an opera company is mentioned in the info box). Local record labels? List of "notable musical artists from Minnesota" (is what's there, Dylan, Du, et al, it?)"

Minnesota's not known for either blues or country. Folk blues probably existed in the state at one point, but is not mentioned in any of my sources. The country music industry is very localized in places other than Minnesota -- if any Minnesotans have become country musicians, they almost certainly left Minnesota to do so. The list of musicians from Minnesota is a separate article that is certainly not complete. I'll see if I can expand a bit on local record labels and opera, though I note that several local labels are described already in the article body. Tuf-Kat

The succinct summary style is good, but the coverage I find sketchy, as noted. --Tsavage 06:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• You make some good points that I will try and address, but I think much of your objection is not actionable. There is little or nothing available in line with Wikipedia:Verifiability on some of the topics you suggest. I have used a number of print, scholarly and web-based resources; while I don't doubt there's additional information that can be added, there are no books or other accessible sources out there. Any significant expansion would presumably require access to musicological journals, museums etc, which is above and beyond what is normally required for FAs, especially on such a non-technical subject. Furthermore, comprehensive is "covers the topic in its entirety, and does not neglect any major facts or details" -- all the major facts and details on this subject are in the article, including some information on all the major fields of music. True, there is a relative paucity of information on Minnesotan music history, but that's not really a major field of study, and it's probably tangential to the interests of most readers of this article. Even if I had an overabundance of resources, I would not want to make that section significantly longer, I think, and would rather make a spinoff article. On the more modern styles you mention, I filled in what I could find using appropriate sources. I can't prove there's no notable blues scene in Minnesota, but then how could I? Tuf-Kat 07:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Tuf-Kat: Thanks for your thoughtful reply. It does raise some concern. In so many words, I understand you to be saying: "this is good enough, this is all I could find, everything important is covered", which IMO completely fails to address the FA criteria and spirit. Obviously, by objecting to this as a FAC, I don't agree. I also disagree with your assessment. First, as noted below, it appears there is plenty of readily available material on "music in Minnesota". Second, eleborated on below, I don't find that "everything important" has been covered. You've provided a generalized response--"much of your objection is not actionable"--it would be much more helpful if you responded to each point individually (I believe they are all clearly, succinctly and separately presented). In any case, to...further support my objection, I spent maybe 30 minutes doing some simple public Web research. An almost random selection from what I turned up:

• Google Books lists hundreds if not thousands of books about or containing info on music in Minnesota - a general music+Minnesota search listed 28,100 titles. I skimmed the excerpts for the first 60 titles and there is LOTS of relevant published print material out there. And that doesn't include local media sources, where newspapers and magazines must have numerous articles covering music aspects. Nor straight Web searches, which also turned up tons of stuff. So, to say or imply that you've found what was "reasonably available" doesn't seem to be borne out in fact.
  • Using the same search, I see a book on polka that may have a section about Minnesota (can't tell, but it looks like it just cites the Minnesota historical society as a source, but I can't be sure), a book of apparently sheet music from an army fort in Minnesota, a book on Ojibwe music (some of whom live in Minnesota), a history of American classical music (which mentions the Minnesota symphony, already a part of this article). That's from the first 100 links on google books -- at best, it's a paragraph on polka and maybe a few words about Ojibwe music (the Ojibwe are not exclusive to Minnesota, nor are they even primarily Minnesotan, I think). Other than that, I see a lot of books published by the University of Minnesota and various other irrelevant things. Tuf-Kat
• several blues festivals/events - on my first search hit for blues that I clicked, six events (all with web sites) were listed under MN blues festivals: Bayfront Blues Festival (Duluth), Boogie Woogie Barnyard Blues (Pemberton), Boundary Waters Blues Festival (Winton), Famous Dave's BBQ & Blues Festival (Minneapolis), Ham Bone Blues Jam (Austin), St. Paul Blues Festival (St. Paul). I looked a little further into one, Bayfront, and in 1996, in its 8th year, it was described as having grown into a mid-sized bluse festival viewed as "one of the most fun and well-planned of its kind in the country". Also, 30 clubs/venues were listed under "Live Blues in Minnesota". So, there seems to be some MN blues activity...[1][2]
  • I'll see if I can incorporate some of that, but I don't think it deserves more than a sentence or two -- only the Bayfront festival looks clearly notable, the rest are marginal at best (will have to look more closely, but that's my first impression). "Famous Dave's BBQ & Blues Festival" appears to be almost entirely famous for the BBQ, the "Boundary Waters Blues Festival"'s website doesn't work and the "Hambone Blues Jam" looks totally unnotable, AFAICT. Tuf-Kat
    • Judging from google, Boogie Woogie Barnyard Blues does not appear notable. I've written a bit on the Bayfront, and mentioned the other two that appear fairly big. Tuf-Kat
• Eddie Cochran was born (Albert Lea, MN?) and raised to early teens in Minnesota; are there other famous musicians than Cochran and Dylan, who came from MN? See also: List of people from Minnesota
  • Will try and find a more detailed bio on Cochran, but if, as our article claims, he was born in Oklahoma and raised to young teens in Minnesota, he's probably not relevant to this article (presumably he didn't perform as a young teen, and since he wasn't even from the state anyway...) Tuf-Kat
    • Allmusic implies he didn't start performing until he was an adult, in southern California, which makes him not relevant to this article, I think. Tuf-Kat
• Sounds Good to Me! Minnesota music exhibition - Opened in 2000. This would seem a good research point for Minnesota musical context and "critical" bits of history: The exhibit will give visitors a sampling of the state's musical events, personalities and activities through the years, and explore the ways in which Minnesotans make music a part of their lives ... not intended to be a "hall-of-fame " of well-known Minnesota musicians nor a march-through-time of the state's musical history
  • This is already cited. There is little on the website that can be used to expand this article. For example, this looks promising, but the article that goes along with it is a personal essay with nothing worth incorporating really. Tuf-Kat
• no mention of ethnic musics - This is an aspect of my "no musical context" objection. I find that MN is about 90% white, with ethnic groups including 36% German and 26% Scandinavian, yet there is only the most passing mention of polka music and no mention of Scandinavian music and styles. The web appears to have a lots of MN-specific info on both, and the MN scenes seem current and notable. What about the Minnesota Scandinavian Ensemble...? The list is quite long. And this is not musical history, these appear to be current elements of the MN music scene.
  • As noted above, please point to the "lots of MN-specific info". Grand total that you've pointed to is a book on polka which may or may not have a chapter on Minnesota, and the Minnesota Scandinavian Ensemble", which looks likely notable despite less than 300 google hits and seems unlikely to provide more than a sentence or two, if that (this is the most detailed page about them that I can find, and it has nothing about Scandinavian music in Minnesota in general). Tuf-Kat

I've only included a few selected bits, which hopefully indicate that there is a lot more to the "music of Minnesota" than presented here. Almost any amount of information can be succinctly summarized -- just pick a word count and write to fit--what I'm talking about is simply info that is not there that I would expect to be.

Finally, although you didn't respond to my specific point about "Recent styles", may I suggest that a view of current popular music scene in any US state is rather out of date using the old music classifications. Up to perhaps the 1980s, it would be safe to cover popular music from the old standard "pop, rock and black". Today, and for anyone under 40, or certainly under 30, coverage of the mainstream pop scene is reflected by "rock, hip hop, electronic (DJ/dance-related)". I mean, from a "rock-centric" perspective, a DJ was opening for U2 on tour years ago. Hip hop and DJ/electronic are part of the music mainstream, and to lump them under "Recent styles", even in Minnesota, is not...contemporary. --Tsavage 23:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. You said above that you thought hip hop and electronic dance should be their own sections. I said there wasn't enough to warrant that. This article does not divide into "pop, rock and black" sections. Honestly, I have no idea what you mean by "Today, and for anyone... is not contemporary" -- what do you mean by "reflected"? Do you mean that most people in that age group would self-identify in one of those three categories? If so, that's very debateable and not at all specific to Minnesota anyway. Hip hop and electronic music are mainstream (well, hip hop is, electronic music much less so), but they are still "recent styles" in Minnesota (and really, they're both pretty recent styles worldwide). If you think more information is needed on either, please give me some hints on what is missing.

Anyway, I do value your input, and there are a few things I think I can expand on later tonight. Tuf-Kat 01:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've done what I can. Do these changes satisfy any of your objections? Tuf-Kat 09:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)