Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manganese, Minnesota/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 29 August 2021 [1].

Manganese, Minnesota edit

Nominator(s): DrGregMN (talk) 00:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Manganese, Minnesota, one of a handful of small mining communities on the Cuyuna Iron Range of north-central Minnesota, and the only one to be abandoned. Manganese was an incorporated community, platted and quickly settled in what was a new iron rush to Minnesota's Cuyuna Range. Manganese boomed quickly, then suffered a slow demise after World War I, existing just over 48 years before it was completely abandoned. A lot of time and resources went into amassing information about the veracity of the community. Despite the fact that Manganese was an incorporated community, very few photographs are know to exist or survive. No resource was left untouched in the preparation of this article and it provides the most comprehensive information about the community in one source. The article is loosely modeled after the featured article Pithole, Pennsylvania. Comments from both Peer Review and the GA Review procees seem to indicate it meets FAC criteria now that it has been suitably sourced. The article both reads and flows well thanks to multiple revisions by the Wikipedia Guild of Copy Editors. DrGregMN (talk) 00:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Moved to talk page

Source review edit

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed.

  • "The Minnesota Territorial Legislature enacted the creation of Crow Wing County on May 23, 1857" - don't see this claim at the cited link
    • You are correct! I swear it was there before. The Wikipedia page Crow Wing County, Minnesota also cites this as a source. As I navigate to it today, the page has changed and now has a disclaimer. This has now been sourced with a different reference.
  • What makes LakesnWoods a high-quality reliable source? Jim Forte? American-Rails? Dan West? Ghost Town USA? Wikimapia? Porter GeoConsultancy? Map Developers? Minnesota Brown? Sutherland?
    • The history of the communities on the LakesnWoods website is accurate, but I have deleted this source and replaced it with a different reference.
    • Jim Forte was a secondary source for the post office at Manganese and has been deleted (the source information is already cited in his photo).
    • The American-Rails website contains accurate information, but this source has been deleted and replaced with a different reference.
    • Dan West actually cites two articles from the Brainerd Dispatch regarding the Manganese Depot: I contacted the Crow Wing County Historical Society to track them down; one of these articles is now cited in place of Dan West.
    • Ghost Towns USA was a corroborating source and was eliminated.
    • Wikimapia was a corroborating source and was eliminated.
    • The information in the Porter GeoConsultancy summary was accurate and like Dan West, cited several sources: I tracked down the relevant source to this article and cited it in place of Porter GeoConsultancy.
    • Map Developers is a Google Maps distance calculator and does not need to be sourced. Removed.
    • Minnesota Brown was a corroborating source and was eliminated.
    • Sutherland is a published doctoral dissertation and absolutely can be cited. The abstract, recommended citation and PDF link to the entire dissertation can be found here: https://digitalcommons.mtu.edu/etdr/110/.
  • Fn15: what kind of source is this, and how would it be accessed?
    • Not everything that is sourced has an online access. This is especially true of historical information. The information cited is archival in nature held by the Cuyuna Iron Range Heritage Network, in Crosby, Minnesota. One would have to travel to Crosby in order to examine the archival material for themselves. A good example can be found here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Manganese,_Minnesota#/media/File:Manganese_Lots.jpg. This is a newspaper clipping that is a part of the archival material related to Manganese at the Cuyuna Iron Range Heritage Network: I have no idea what paper it is from, what the date for this advertisement is, or what page it was on, but that does not mean it's not sourceable. Wikipedia has a citation template "Cite Archive" specifically for this purpose which may be found here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_archive, and the acceptable citation where the author of a work cannot be identified to use "Anon" in place of the authors name. Even the links cited to the Minnesota Historical Society only show that the archives exist, but the archives cannot be accessed directly online: you would still need to make a trip to the Minnesota Historical Society to access the material.
      • I'm not objecting to the use of an offline source, but am trying to get a better understanding of the nature of this one in particular: are these unpublished records? All newspaper clippings? Some other kind of documents? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Glad you asked. Many documents, and not just newpaper clippings. They have a record of the deeds for the lots of the original homeowners, the original bond that was issued for the waterworks project, a letter of welcome from the village officers to new residents of Manganese, election results, four (and only four) photos of the community, letters from former residents, as well as newspaper clippings and journal articles which were able to be sourced and cited separately for this article.
          • Okay. Can we get a little more clarity on what is being cited for what? A newspaper clipping versus a personal letter are very different kinds of sources. Also, how has Wp:PSTS been taken into account? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:07, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • Everything cited would be considered a secondary source. Cited materials are descriptive in nature from information contained in the files of the archive, and can be independently verified by anyone who wishes to view the same. Nothing is subject to my own interpretation. Any information in the archive which contained publisher information, author, dates and page numbers was individually cited for this article. The only interpretation I may have made from what would be considered a primary source was a letter from a former resident which stated, "the street lights remained on until the 1970's". Since it did not specify a specific year, I paraphrased in the article "for at least a decade" since Manganese was abandonded in 1960. DrGregMN (talk) 03:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
              • Is it possible to provide a bit more specificity in the actual citations? For example something like <ref>Letter from A. Resident, in {{cite archive|...</ref>. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                • Yes, but I believe these would create a lot of separate references instead of the single existing "Cite Archive" reference. I will work on it today. DrGregMN (talk) 12:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Completed. You will probably ask what is a "historical handbook"? Someone at the Cuyuna Iron Range Historical Network collated information on all of the Cuyuna Range communites in typewritten format and placed them in a book. A page from that book appears here; you will see "Historical Hanbook" in the upper left hand corner: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Handbook.jpg. You might also ask what do the village elections have to do with the immigrant population? The elections instructions were written in all of the cited languages, including English. Thank you, Nikkimaria! Thank you, Nikkimaria! DrGregMN (talk) 23:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Just for clarity: you're basing the list of immigrant groups solely on the languages in which the instructions were provided, or do these actually list the groups? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                      • It is a corrborating citation. Call it a leap of faith, but if the election instructions are written in multiple languages, then there must be an immigrant population that speaks these languages. Citations from both Sutherland and the Brainerd Dispatch back this up. I understand how this might be considered a primary source since I am the one making what I consider to be a logical connection. I have removed the citation, but bear in mind any other scholar would be able to cite the material if they are willing to make the trip to Crosby and view it for themselves. Thank you, Nikkimaria. DrGregMN (talk) 13:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                        • Right, but there is not a one-to-one correspondence between language and immigrant group - just for example, the instructions could have been translated into French for the benefit of immigrants from France, but also from Quebec, Mali, Haiti, etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                          • Understood. I didn't even think about the possiblity of a Canadian province or French-controlled territory. I've modified the sentence to reflect only those immigrants specifically cited and not the languages. DrGregMN (talk) 14:36, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newspaper names should be italicized
    • Fixed
      • Location names though should not be italicized - eg Brainerd Dispatch (MN). Also still some missing italics, eg City Pages.
        • Fixed
          • Nope, still issues here - eg Brainerd Dispatch (MN). Nikkimaria (talk) 21:07, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN28: page?
    • Page 5. Fixed
  • See MOS:POSTABBR
    • Done and fixed
  • Be consistent in whether you include publisher for periodicals
    • Fixed
  • Be consistent in when you include publication location
    • Fixed
  • FN36: date doesn't match source
    • Fixed
  • Be consistent in how citations to reports are formatted
    • Fixed
      • Still some inconsistencies here - compare for example FNs 49 and 68. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fixed
  • Don't repeat publisher in author field
    • Fixed

Oppose due to concerns about sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you Nikkimaria. Your criticims make me a better editor. Hopefully I have satisfactorily addressed all of the citation issues! DrGregMN (talk) 00:23, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Make sure page ranges consistently use endashes. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Nikkimaria, just checking that your striking your oppose means that the source review has passed. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:53, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It appears that my points from 14 August are still outstanding. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:17, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hello, Nikkimaria. Have I satisfactorially addressed all of the outstanding citation issues? I mangaed to source one of the uncited newspaper clippings, and I can certainly add future page numbers to the references from the Historical Handbook at the Cuyuna Iron Range Heritage Network, but I would have to make a trip to Crosby to do so. I hope that would not be a reason to hold up promotion of this article if you feel it is ready. DrGregMN (talk) 22:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jens edit

  • Manganese was one of the last of the Cuyuna Range communities to be established, and named after the mineral located in abundance near the town – link to the mineral?
    • Done, although the community etymology is already linked in the infobox.
  • Trommald formation – has to be upper case, since these formations are formal names: Trommald Formation.
    • Done
  • the main ore-producing unit – link to geological formation?
    • Done
  • The Trommald formation and adjacent Emily district – hmm, a formation is not a region, it is a rock unit, and the lateral extent of such units is often much larger than the part that is cropping out at the surface. Maybe name the other formation in that district instead?
  • No need for citations in the lead generally, since everything stated in the lead should appear in the main text in any case.
    • There is nothing specific with regard to citations in the lead section of an article. I tend to cite things as they are first mentioned, but if you would prefer they be moved to the body of the article, that can be done.
      • Per convention, we only give the citations in the main text, with few exceptions. This makes sense, since abstracts of scientific papers also don't have citations. But more importantly, we need to repeat the citation each time we repeat the cited info. This is important since verification may be difficult otherwise. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:19, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done, except for one small citation. Compromise? DrGregMN (talk) 22:58, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • all of which collapsed at some point due to the heavy clay soils – but "heavy" is not a reason why a well collapses? I guess it is because the clay flows over time?
    • Possibly, but I am not a geologist and subject to conjecture. I can only cite (without copyvio) what is in the reference material I have available.
      • OK, thinking about it, there is more than one way to interpret it anyways. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • World War I – link in main text at first mention
    • Done
  • As mining operations began to shut down, residents gradually started moving their homes out of town for relocation to other communities in the region.[43] – This was already stated.
    • Sentences combined.
  • Very few photos of Manganese are known to exist. Never a wealthy community, residents had no money for cameras, a luxury item during the Depression.[33] – Would expect this at the end of the paragraph, because it does not seem to belong within the chronology.
    • Actually, I prefer to leave this sentence where it is because it does make chronological sense. The Great Depression began with the stock market crash of 1929 and recovery didn't occur until the advent of World War II, when Germany invaded Poland in 1939 (although some economists believe recovery started as early as 1937). The Methodist church at Manganese was founded in 1938, so this sentence fits neatly in between dates.
  • site was consumed by the steady growth of natural vegetation – sounds repetitive; you already stated that plants overgrew the site.
    • Sentences combined.
  • which opened in June 2011[70] and have been a tourism asset since the last manganiferous ore was shipped from the Cuyuna Range in 1984. – How can they be a tourism asset since 1984 when they only opened in 2011? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've reworded this sentence so they are more appropriately linked.

Coordinator note edit

Nearly three weeks in and this nomination has only picked up one general review. Unless there is a little further interest oby the three week mark I am afraid that it is likely to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • "The community was composed of many immigrants who had fled the various natural disasters, and the social and political upheavals in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries before the onset of World War I." This sentence reads a bit oddly to me. Maybe "The community was composed of immigrants who had fled natural disasters and social and political upheavals in Europe during the decades before World War I."
    • It does read a bit oddly. I like your suggestion better. Changed.
  • You say there was a steady decline after WWI, but also 600 around 1919 and 183 in 1920. This does not seem right.
    • It may not seem right, but it is true. Manganese peaked around 600 in 1919, and in the 1920 census dropped to 183 showing steady decline in each census thereafter.
  • I think you need to clarify that it was a sharp drop followed by a steady decline. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarified. First sentence modified in last paragraph of Establishment and community to read After the World War I armistice was signed, the demand for manganiferous ore decreased, and Manganese experienced a sharp drop in population from its peak of nearly 600 in 1919 to 183 in 1920. The last sentence of this paragraph already explains how the remaining population gradually started moving out of town. DrGregMN (talk) 13:53, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while surveyor and mining engineer Cuyler Adams was exploring the area". When? You say that there was test drilling 15 years later, but you should still give the year of exploration.
    • Done
  • "the new town was touted as the "Hibbing of the Cuyuna Range"". Hibbing should be explained.
    • Done, with references
  • "two hotels, a bank, two grocery stores, two butcher shops, a lumber yard, a bakery, a livery stable, a barbershop, a pool room, a show hall, a dog pound, and a two-room school" No bars?
    • You would think, right? The only bar mentioned in any of the cited sources was the one at the Fitger hotel. It could be because prohibition took effect in the United States in 1920 and was not repealed until 1933 during the Great Depression, the worst economic downturn in history hitting a community already in decline.
  • "Children attended school in Manganese through the eighth grade" For the benefit of non-US readers, it would be helpful to give the age of eighth graders.
    • Done
  • "Notices sent to the last known village officers were refused." What does this mean?
    • Clarified
  • "There is a local push to "scram" the stockpiles of ore found in the old waste rock of the Cuyuna Iron Range." What does scram mean?
    • Probably better cited than to try and explain this in the article. I have done this.
  • It still needs explanation as the term is so obscure. Citing is for providing evidence that a statement is correct, not explaining what it means. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. New sentence now reads This mining process is significantly less invasive than traditional blasting and crushing, producing iron ore and iron ore concentrates from previously developed waste rock stockpiles, tailings basins, open pit or underground mines on land not previously affected by mining. DrGregMN (talk) 13:53, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Dudley Miles! Does that mean you Support on prose? DrGregMN (talk) 22:59, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Edwininlondon edit

Looks interesting. I'll do a prose review tomorrow. Edwininlondon (talk) 21:15, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The area around Manganese, and modern-day Crow Wing County --> Crow Wing County should be linked. Doesn't matter that you already linked it in the lead. Same for others like Cuyuna Range
    • Done
  • was initially inhabited --> when was this?
    • Done
  • In 1855, a treaty between the Ojibwe and the U.S. Government, signed by chief Hole in the Day in what was then Minnesota Territory, secured Ojibwe hunting and fishing rights while ceding land which would become the Cuyuna Range to European-Americans looking to build new settlements in the region. --> I found this long sentence difficult to parse.
    • Broke into two separate sentences. Better?
Yes
  • The discovery of the Cuyuna Iron Range was an accident, --> when was this?
  • was touted as the "Hibbing of the Cuyuna Range" --> a bit of an explanation here would be good
Not sure about this. I guess the core message is "this town is growing fast because of iron just like Hibbing over in the Mesabi Range". It seems to me that the high school reference is a bit of a distraction, mostly because the Manganese wealth is not yet mentioned, that's in the next paragraph. Unless that was key to the analogy of course. Then the current size of Hibbing's population is brought up as well ("remains"), another distraction I think because we are explaining why the nickname was created 100 years ago. Lastly, the "was once" should be made more specific, ideally dating back to the time of Manganese's foundation. So I'd favour something along the lines of "Hibbing, founded in xxx and by 1915 the biggest mining town of the Mesabi Range with a population of 20,000, was at the time called the "Iron Ore Capital of the World." (provided my assumptions are correct + there are sources to back this up of course)
  • Your assumptions are correct, and the cited sources back this up. Sentence changed. DrGregMN (talk) 22:13, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry to be a pain about this but "at one time" is not quite as good as "at the time". Do you know when Hibbing was declared "Iron Ore Capital of the World."?
  • You're not a pain. I'm totally okay with "at the time" (and I have changed the wording). However, the sources do not specifically state that Hibbing was being called the "Iron Ore Capital of the World" in 1915, so I struggled with this wanting to be factually accurate. Was it sooner than 1915? Later? I know it was being called the "Iron Ore Capital of the World" in 1955. I have emailed the Hibbing Historical Society; hopefully they can provide me with a better answer. I do find the fact that Manganese was initially touted as the "Hibbing of the Cuyuna Range" to be a little bit of an oxymoron, given the disparities in wealth and population DrGregMN (talk) 01:04, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hopefully the Hibbing Historical Society comes back with an answer. But I don't want to hold my support until they reply, so perhaps better to temporarily change it back to what you do know to be true ("one time") and then when they have a reliable source for the claim dating back to around 1915, you can change it again to "at the time".
  • Reverted the edit. Still awaiting a reply from the Hibbing Historical Society (I know it will be forthcoming eventually), and change the text as needed. Thank you for your support, Edwininlondon! DrGregMN (talk) 18:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have received email correspondence from the Hibbing Historical Society. While they cannot say when the phrase was first used, the earliest citable record they have is from a promotional brochure which dates back to 1924. Would you like me to use that date, or leave the text as is? Thank you Edwininlondon! DrGregMN (talk) 18:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • If 1924 is the earliest I would say we have to stick with "one time". "At the time" may be true but without evidence we can't use it.
  • [28][9][29] --> usually the references are given in ascending order
    • Fixed

More to come, hopefully soon. Edwininlondon (talk) 19:24, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, here is a bit more:

  • The Milford accident feels a bit out of place. It takes place in 1924. By 1920 the population is already way down. I don't think that the Harry Hosford connection warrants moving the Milford description up. Better to stay in proper chronological order I think.
    • I would prefer to leave this sentence where it is because it does make chronologic sense. This section specifically talks about the community, which should include notable persons. World War I ended with the armistice in 1918. The citation for the combined payrolls of the mines are from 1920. The citizens from Manganese that served (past tense) in World War I include Harry Hosford (the cited military records date 1918-1920), who was one of the few survivors of the Milford Mine disaster of 1924, where many Manganese citizens were empolyed.
  • OK
  • It is not possible to determine the mineral content in the iron formation from top to bottom in any one location due to the great diversity of ore textures and the shape of the ore bodies. --> I struggle with this. I know nothing about geology, but I guess quite a few readers will be like me. Why is it not possible? Can I not just drill a hole to the bottom and examine the mineral content in what I dig up?
    • I'm not a geologist either, and I know how difficult it can be to wrap your head around all of the information. Reading all of the literature regarding Cuyuna Range geology has been an education for me. I've added another sentence with citations which I hope is a sufficient explanation.
  • Page 20 says "it has not been possible to determine the original mineral content .." That I can understand. Past tense + original. But without original and in present tense it still is puzzling to me.
  • Ah-ha! Now I understand. I was trying to apply this sentence to the current mineral characteristics of the Trommald formation and not the original mineral content, prior to the oxidation of the facies, as was the author's intent. Good catch! My error. I have removed this sentence and reworded the paragraph. DrGregMN (talk) 02:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK.
  • 0.5 to 15 percent manganese, with local areas of manganese as high as 50 percent. --> So really it varies from 0.5 to 50?
    • I am paraphrasing the cited literature here, but your criticism is a good one. Local areas of manganese are as high as 50% (or ferruginous manganese ore where the concentration of manganese is higher than the iron, as in the case of the Algoma mine). It really does vary from 0.5% to 50 %. Sentence changed.
  • The ores contained on average about 43% iron and 10% manganese --> why is this not closer to the sentence about the variation?
    • Sentence moved.
  • Is boon a good word choice for WP? I'm not a native speaker, so just checking
    • Wording changed.
  • which opened in June 2011[68] and have been an economic boon to the region since the last manganiferous ore was shipped from the Cuyuna Range in 1984 --> that ending is bit odd. It opened in 2011 so why mention 1984? Is it because it is the first positive thing economic-wise since 1984?
    • Yes. Sentence changed with added reference.

That's it from me. Edwininlondon (talk) 10:51, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • You're welcome. Just two open issues to address and then we're there. Edwininlondon (talk) 21:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I Support this nomination on prose. Interesting article. Nice work. Edwininlondon (talk) 21:09, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Manganese,_Minnesota/archive1&oldid=1041240658"