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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Malcolm X

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Raul654 10:55, 9 March 2009 [1].

Malcolm X edit

Nominator(s): — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets all the Featured Article criteria. I got constructive feedback during the GA process and during the Peer Review, and I look forward to any comments concerning its suitability for FA status. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support High quality and well written article, exceeds FA standards in my opinion LetsdrinkTea 02:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref formatting...is found up to speed using WP:REFTOOLS.--TRUCO 02:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question — In the "See Also" section, are there comparable articles for New York City as those listed for Omaha? JKBrooks85 (talk) 04:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, there are no similar articles concerning New York. Do you think the Omaha articles are off-topic? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • They puzzled me for a moment, before I scrolled up and saw that he was born in Omaha. JKBrooks85 (talk) 05:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • Current ref 139 (Davis...) is lacking a publisher.
  • What makes http://www.brothermalcolm.net/ a reliable source?
  • All those refs at the end of the ref section that are "Movie Title" at Internet Movie Database need to be formatted just like the other web refs. They need a last access date also.
  • Ref 215 (Nebraska Historical marker...) needs a publisher.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I've added publishers for both refs. Brothermalcolm.net, aka "Malcolm X: A Research Site", is edited by Dr. Abdul Alkalimat, Professor of Sociology and Director of the African Studies programme at the University of Toledo, and is an initiative of the university and Twenty-First Century Books.[2][3] A website with reputable institutional backing, with editorial oversight by a published expert in the field, would seem to meet our criteria for reliable sources. IMdB issues outstanding. Skomorokh 16:03, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done IMDB references have been changed to {{cite web}} references. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 17:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Not ready. Prose issues. Lack of narrative flow (text jumps from topic to topic with stubby paragraphs). Quotations used with little context. Claims cited to primary sources (especially his autobiography) presented as factual. Examples at random:
    • "Malcolm said she looked like a white woman." Said? What's the context of this "said"?
    • "Her Scottish father was a white man of whom Malcolm Little knew nothing except what he described as his mother's shame" Baffling sentence. Shame of what?
    • "His mother recalled the Klansmen warned the family to leave Omaha" Ungrammatical.
    • "The family relocated to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in 1926, and to Lansing, Michigan, shortly thereafter", "moved to Boston, Massachusetts, to live with his" Comma overload. Check for this problem throughout.
    • "Though Little's father" Ambiguous. Use "Malcolm" or "Malcolm Little" in this section instead of "Little". "Little wrote " So ambiguous in this context; which Little?
    • "Little was one of the best students in his junior high school, but he dropped out after an eighth-grade teacher told him that his aspirations of being a lawyer were "no realistic goal for a nigger"" Presented as factual but sourced to his autobiography.
    • ""Little developed a voracious appetite for reading, much of it after the prison lights had been turned off." Another example (there are many others) of a claim relying on a primary source and presented as factual.
    • "In The Autobiography of Malcolm X, he said " Surely, he wrote?
    • "During this time, his friends and acquaintances called him "Detroit Red"." Reads like an item of trivia; no attempt to integrate this to achieve narrative flow (if this is notable, explain why they called him this).
    • "He explained the name by saying, " Huh? Is this the stock quotation he used to explain his name to others at the time? What is the context?
    • "after hearing that he had described himself as a Communist." So vague; hearing??
    • "Malcolm X criticized " Again, no context for the quotation in this and the following sentence. When/where did he utter these words?
    • "Then one day he called and asked her to marry him" Professional, encyclopedic language, please. BuddingJournalist 23:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your comments. I'll work on the prose. I have a few notes of my own:
  • Malcolm X is the only person referred to as "Little" without a first name.
  • Many of the incidents in Malcolm X's early life are known only through his autobiography. Other biographers use the autobiography as their source. Where another source was available—usually Perry, who interviewed hundreds of people who knew Malcolm X—I used it. Question: Is it better to cite the Autobiography or a secondary source that used the Autobiography as its source?
  • The Autobiography of Malcolm X was written by Alex Haley based on lengthy interviews with Malcolm X and has a conversational tone. In some places, I varied "wrote" with "said". I'll be sure to use the word "wrote" in all instances. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not particularly familiar with the convention of referring to the subject only by last name in the midst of many others who share the same name. I've always been familiar with the convention of referring to people by their first names or full names in sections like these to avoid ambiguity, and I would advocate the use of it here.
  • Unless you are using it to point out, say, an inconsistency in what he said and what scholars say, leave the autobiography alone. Whenever you do use it, you should say explicitly in the text that the claim is based on the autobiography. For the most part, though, you should be using scholarly secondary sources to write this article; they are the ones best equipped to sort out fact from fiction in his autobiography. It's a primary source that is not exactly reliable. See WP:NOR and WP:RS.
  • Ah, in that case, then "wrote" would not be right. "said" would be OK...perhaps on first use of the autobiography, use "told writer Alex Haley". But again, these should be few and far between. BuddingJournalist 15:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've fixed the references to Malcolm Little.
  • I've eliminated all cites to the Autobiography except where necessary, and in those instances the article makes clear that it's being used as a source, either by direct reference or by quotation marks.
  • I've replaced "said" with "wrote".
  • I tried to clean up the prose a little, particularly the sorts of problems you identified. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Haven't revisited the article in-depth, but I struck my oppose for now. Regarding "said" vs. "wrote", I think you may have misread my last response on that issue. BuddingJournalist 14:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. I think I understand your suggestion, but I agree more with your initial point that it's natural to assume that one "writes" in one's autobiography. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:29, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments:
  • I did a quick copy edit of the lede and first two sections. You might want to take a look and make sure I didn't screw up anything too much.
  • In the lede, I'm unsure about the phrasing about his Hajj. To avoid redundancy, might I suggest changing the relevant sentence to "After leaving the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X made a pilgrimage to Mecca and became a Sunni Muslim.
  • In the first mention of Marcus Garvey, would a qualifier be out of place for people who aren't familiar with him? Something like "Pan-African activist Marcus Garvey"?
  • The sentence "Little developed a voracious appetite for reading, much of it after the prison lights had been turned off" is a little awkward. Would something like "Little developed a voracious appetite for reading, and he read fervently after the prison lights had been turned off" work better?
  • There's quite a few past perfect verb structures throughout the article. Most of these are appropriate, but a few can be changed to simple past tense without affecting the meaning. You might consider switching some of these. JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — Text is excellent and article looks complete. Images illustrate the article well. I don't see any problems with the formatting. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 09:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC))[reply]
  • Support — The prose of this article is very clean, easy to understand, and grammatically correct. Though some minor imperfections may still exist, they do not detract from a reader's ability to understand the subject. The topic is presented clearly, with minimal bias, and the author(s) of the article have done a superb job of making it impartial. Citations are thorough and correct, and the number of sources consulted is impressive. Excellent work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JKBrooks85 (talk • contribs)

Significant image concerns as follows:

  • File:Shabazz Gravesite.jpg: this memorial plaque is a work of art, considering the pattern and layout of the leaves and pebbled border. Under US laws, there is no freedom of panorama for works of art in the public. As the maker's copyright for this plaque has not run out (70 years past the creator's passing), this image cannot be classified or licensed as "free use". It is also unlikely to qualify as a fair-use image; the artwork is certainly not commented on, nor is it significant in the presented context.
  • File:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif: "Malcolm X continually stood guard, peeking out the windows, an M1 carbine in his hands, ready to shoot anyone who was going to carry out the death threats." and other such similar sentences can more than capably describe the picture; hence, this image fails WP:NFCC#1 and 8.
  • File:Noi flag 2.svg: as a flag of a religious body, it is likely a copyviolation. NoI may have said they are not going to swear allegiance to the US flag, but they still have to abide by US laws. As can be seen on http://www.noi.org/press-events/press10-17-2001.htm, they do copyright their website contents. This flag is on http://nation-of-islam-news.newslib.com/, and absence of a copyright notice on the front page does not mean that copyright has been surrendered. Proof must be gotten that the flag is in or has been released into the public domain.

All other pictures are verifiably in the public domain or under the appropriate license. Jappalang (talk) 11:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for bringing these issues to my attention. I'll remove the images from the article and, in the case of the Nation of Islam flag, from the template. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Images were removed, and as of this version, no images issues exist. Jappalang (talk) 12:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Support I gave an extended commentary on the talk page. --Moni3 (talk) 16:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia asked me to revisit the article. Make no mistake, I think it's well-done and certainly a worthy topic. However, I think the article should be more comprehensive. I do not get a sense of why Islam was so important to him. I don't understand from the article how self-education and self-reliance for blacks was so important to him individually, which is integral since he preached it. I believe it's essential that the article address how Malcolm X was moved into believing what he did. Now, it addresses his beliefs but only seems to chronicle them; glossing over them without dissecting them. I'm going to keep my oppose, but I understand if the article is promoted. I offered my assistance to Malik Shabazz in what little capacity I could, and I will keep that an open invitation whether the article is promoted or not. Best of luck, and let me know if you need clarification on anything. --Moni3 (talk) 23:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the comments, and I intend to improve the article to address the important issues you have raised. But it's too much for me to undertake in the next few days or weeks. I did address some of the issues you raised on the article's Talk page. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:34, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the comments, and I intend to improve the article to address the important issues you have raised. I've started the process, but I'm not sure how long it's going to take. I've already addressed some of the issues you raised on the article's Talk page. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 07:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to support. Well done. You'll have a time keeping it clean. I suggest, as I noticed the bit about Red Foxx inserted, that you use a Footnotes section similar to what is in Harvey Milk to keep the somewhat interesting but not essential information in the article. I may come back to it and read it a few more times. --Moni3 (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As you suggested, I've added quite a bit about Malcolm X's motivations, the response of the public, etc. I deleted the Redd Foxx information as trivia. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:07, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support: good job. I'd like to see something about Betty Shabazz's position after Malcolm's death as a spokesperson for civil rights along with Coretta Scott King in later years..as well as Malcolm's grown daughters...Perhaps in the legacy section..Modernist (talk) 13:57, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Betty Shabazz largely lived her life outside the public eye, although she, Coretta Scott King, and Myrlie Evers-Williams made public appearances as the "Movement widows". The Shabazz daughters, too, have been very private; the index of a recent 600-page biography about Betty Shabazz has only five mentions of one daughter and eight mentions of another. I'm not sure that very much can be said about them that would contribute to the Legacy section. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 08:00, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen Betty Shabazz on public outlets such as C-SPAN, but probably that is hard to document. In my mind, she holds a weighty place in the legacy. As you say, she is one of the core "Movement widows". I am sure you have tried to find what you could. —Mattisse (Talk) 14:31, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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