Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lara Croft/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Laser brain 16:20, 15 December 2010 [1].

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Lara Croft

Lara Croft (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Lara Croft/archive1
• Featured article candidates/Lara Croft/archive2

Nominator(s): Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the FA criteria. The topic has undergone several copy edits, draws from a number of reliable online and print sources, and features a mixture of free and non-free images. Please let me know otherwise and I will do my best to correct the problem. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

• Images File:Lara_Croft.png could do with being lower resolution, a non free image is not required to show wire frame modeling, and File:Toby_Gard_-_E3_2005.jpg should be tagged as having a trademark. Fasach Nua (talk) 18:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
  • For File:Lara_Croft.png, would 200×480 be fine?
  • Could clarify what you mean in regard to the wire frame modeling? Do you suggest that a free image be used or that no image is needed?
    • I would like to keep the image if at all possible, but will remove if it absolutely necessary.
    • To expand on the intended use, wireframe modeling is not the only concept meant to be conveyed through the image. The image is meant to display the use of wireframes and texturing (concepts that I believe are difficult to visualize and understand via text alone), which are both described in the article. The image also depicts how the character first looked without a ponytail, which has become a fan-favorite aspect.
  • I added the {{Trademark}} on the commons page. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

• WP:NFCC states "Low- rather than high-resolution/fidelity/bit rate is used"
• There are free images which explain the concept of wire frame very well, and are used in Dutch and German WP
• I would imagine you could reference the main image and augment the text with "without a pony tail" Fasach Nua (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I have read WP:NFCC and would like some clarification as to what you deem an acceptable resolution. I considered the 250×600 to be fine but was apparently wrong. 200×480 is below a megapixel. Do you deem that acceptable?
  • To reiterate, I'm not solely concerned with conveying what a wire frame model is, but with the combination of wire frames, texturing, and the first appearance of the character. If you still deem the image unacceptable, then I will remove it from the article. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

• The acceptable resolution is the lowest possible that will still allow you to convey the desired information
• It is my belief that the use of this image will violate WP:NFCC and thus WP:FA Criteria 3 and thus cause the article to fail FAC Fasach Nua (talk) 20:03, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

• Which specific criteria of WP:NFCC do you think the image violates? I have to say I disagree with you - the image significantly increases understanding of the topic and I can't see any reason why it should be removed. Cavie78 (talk) 15:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

• Very well, I will remove the comparison image and reduce the main image to 200×480 as I believe that a lower resolution will impact its ability to convey information. Thanks. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

• Comment - There's very little in the article about Lara's relationships with other characters. I'm not that familiar with the games, so I don't know how important or lasting these relationships are, and how they define her, but all that's touched on in the article is her relationships with her parents. (There's also nothing on Lara's hatred of animals, but that can slide)

• In regards to the images, I think the use of an Anniversary image is a weird choice. You haven't chosen Lara's most recent portrayal, or her classic portrayal, but a facsimile of her previous look through the eyes of Crystal Dynamics. I would opt for the most recent version in the infobox, and then use an image of Lara from the original Tomb Raider in the development section, to show the character as envisaged by Toby Gard.

• Lara is always cited as the first fictional character to appear on the front of The Face. But was there nothing of substance in the article? It's not cited. - hahnchen 20:48, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Outside her parents and Von Croy, I did not come across much in the way of relationships during my research. As such, unless mentions of other characters were prominent in the content I read, it was not included in the article. I also purposely tried to limit the amount of fictional plot information in the article because much of that is already in the separate game articles.
  • I did not put the image there, but I agree with it's placement as it shows her most recognizable outfit using a fairly current rendering to show details. I'm not married to the image though and if you'd like something more current I will upload whatever I can find from Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light. Please let me know.
    • I'm not sure how Guardian of Light fits in with Lara canon/timeline, so I'd probably stick an Underworld image in (but you know better than I do). It's just that the article discusses the evolution of the character, such as the removal of the plait, yet the main image shows the plait in the modern style. I think you'd be better served with a modern Lara in the infobox, and the original design in the development section. I think its important that readers can see where the evolution starts and ends. - hahnchen 21:51, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
      • The timeline is quite fragmented, and I'm not entirely sure how Guardian of Light fits in. There is a good render at the fan site Tomb Raider Chronicles, as well as ones from the other games. Do you mind if other editors weigh in on the matter before I do anything with the image? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC))
  • Again, this is a case of what I found in my research. Outside simply appearing on the cover, all I found was "Computer and Video Games commented that Lara Croft's appearance on the cover of The Face signalled a change in the perception of video games from 'geeky' to mainstream." I searched through almost everything I could get my hands on, but if you know of other sources I'd certainly welcome the extra content. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 21:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC))
• Comments on images and such: I generally agree with Fasach in that the wireframe view isn't really important enough to merit inclusion. What the image was really offering was the original look of the character. With File:Lara Croft.png, you've got an updated look; I think with some extra copy that explains in general how they revamped the character in the infobox, followed by the more detailed content later on, satisfies addressing the original and later incarnations fairly well. Using the appearance from Guardian of Light is useful as an illustration of the character's latest incarnation, but A) the current image is of the character's more iconic look, which I think is more important to illustrate, and B) since Guardian of Light is more a spinoff than a direct sequel I don't think it's apropos to illustrate the character with it. In shorter form: keep Lara Croft.png. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • What about an image that depicts the character in Tomb Raider: Underworld? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC))
    • Well, as the article itself says the game didn't do well and the look wasn't persistent, so it's not a good lead. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the comments. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:43, 1 December 2010 (UTC))

• Support - Makes good use of free images, and is broad in its coverage, and fairly well-written. Good job! :)--AlastorMoody (talk) 08:48, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Contribs SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

DAB/EL Check - no dabs, one external link problem- the videogames.yahoo.com link (ref 102) is dead- seems the whole site got pulled for the immediate future. --PresN 22:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

It looks like the site will be relaunched, but I'm not sure if the previous content will be there. I commented out that sentence and the reference for now. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:21, 6 December 2010 (UTC))

• Further comments — c.1c, et al.
  • I did not detect any obvious phrases that suggested plagiarism or close paraphrasing, unwitting or otherwise. I did a semi-random sample of refs and their attributed sources, in this version, of statements attributed to refs 1, 7, 39, 40, 89, 119, and 161. Mostly they looked good, just one niggling issue I saw: "McAndrew portrayed Lara Croft from 1998 until 1999, when Eidos fired her for posing in Playboy, which used the character and Tomb Raider franchise to promote the McAndrew's issue without Eidos's approval."→The source sez "The real controversy came when McAndrew posed for Playboy in 1999. Though she wasn't technically playing Lara in these photos, the magazine used her status as a selling point [...] The publisher forced Playboy to remove any mention of Tomb Raider from the issue, and they promptly fired McAndrew". It's not exactly clear to what extent Tomb Raider was used in the magazine, and McAndrew definitely was not posing as Croft, so I would specify it was more the connection.
  • In terms of sources, they primarily seem to be high-quality, often print publications. (The less reliable opinions seem to be reported by more-reliable sources, so I guess there's no issues there.)
  • On a prose standpoint, there are times when comments in the latter sections of the article where the tense shifts: to keep uniform with everything else, this should prolly all be past tense ("Jeremy Smith credits Lara Croft with exposing the Tomb Raider games and video games in general to a wider audience.") I think some of the pundits quoted could use a one or two-line intro if they aren't specifically tied to a publication. Also, I started getting bogged down towards the end. There's so much good content, it's hard to decide what to trim or what to aggregate, but I think the paragraph about internet sites could be condensed greatly, and that the reception section should be reorganized: discuss the initial (game) reception first, then the history, then the overall impact. Lumping together similar views in the "sex symbol" section would also help, because I think it's teetering towards "X says Y, Z says A, B says D while E says C" repetition and with that much content there's no easy way to make it easier to digest. Also, what does "who openly greeted him upon learning of the trip." really mean?

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

In response to your comments:

• I'm not aware of to what extent, but the words "Tomb Raider" and "Lara Croft" were printed in the issue, specifically on the cover.[2][3] Ref 90 gives a few more details.[4] I can add more citations to that sentence if you like, but I originally felt the bulk of the sources for that part sufficiently covered everything.
• I addressed the "Reception" section, but not the "Sex symbol" one. I'll give it look today or tomorrow.
  • "..who openly greeted him upon learning of the trip" means that the guy started the trip as his own thing. But coverage of his trip reached the developers, who waited for him to arrive. They personally greeted him and gave him souvenirs.

(Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:21, 6 December 2010 (UTC))

David- I'm sorry, but I guess I've been starring at the text too long. Do you have more feedback for the "Sex symbol" section? I get stuck every time I look for ways to condense that section. Any particular paragraph you think is the worst offender? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:32, 7 December 2010 (UTC))

I think the male gamers section could be chopped down to just describe the fact that they searched for these mods or made patches, and the paragraph after is carrying the least weight for its bulk. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 22:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I trimmed those two paragraphs. Let me know if there's anything else? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC))

• Comment. More of the cultural impact and which precedents the character set in video gaming should be covered in the lead section. In fact, I think this should be discussed in the very first paragraph, giving early justification of why the character has become so notable. I think the Appearances section should be moved towards the end of the article; it makes more sense discussing her development immediately after introducing her in the lead and the Description sections. Regarding the video games section, would it be possible to get a free image to portray her in one of the early games? Regarding the character's redesign, I recall controversies among both fans and feminists; for the latter this should probably also be covered in the Sex symbol section. Nageh (talk) 11:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

  In response to your comments

  • I expanded on the cultural impact in the lead, but kept it in the same paragraph it was in.
  • The "Appearance" section was written to give better context to the proceeding sections. It was further down, but I found myself giving details in the development section that would already be mentioned in the appearances. Moving it under the "Description" section consolidated all the descriptive information and set up the rest of the article.
  • Since the games and character are copyrighted, all images that would depict them are unfortunately non-free.
  • There is ample fan criticism regarding the redesign, but little from reliable sources. Fan controversies mainly occurred on forums. All the reliable feminist content found is already in the article. If you know of other sources, however, I'd gladly look into them.

  Let me know if there's anything else. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC))

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.