Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Katana Zero/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 26 October 2022 [1].

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Katana Zero

Nominator(s): JOEBRO64 13:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Second time's the charm, I guess. Since the last FAC unfortunately got virtually no input, I'll repeat what I said last time: One of my favorite video games of the last few years has been this 2019 indie platformer, which blends the tone and themes of neo-noir cinema with fast-paced, insanely difficult side-scrolling gameplay and a killer synthwave soundtrack. Katana Zero was an intense labor of love for its creator Justin Stander, who developed the game almost entirely by himself over the course of six years. It was delayed repeatedly and switched publishers at one point, but was finally released in April 2019 to strong sales and rave reviews.

I've spent a substantial amount of time since last year building this up from a mere stub to a fully comprehensive good article and I believe that it meets the criteria to earn a bronze star. Hope you enjoy the article! JOEBRO64 13:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Image review (pass)

• File:Katana Zero cover.png: It has appropriate ALT text and a clear and defined purpose in the article. I would recommend archiving the source link to avoid any potential headaches with link rot and death but that is not required for FACs.
• File:Katana Zero Gameplay.gif: It has appropriate ALT text and a clear and defined purpose in the article. The FUR is solid to me and I appreciate the addition of a GIF in this context. As I have already said above, I would recommend archiving the source link, but I am not sure if a GIF can be archived or how that really works.
• File:Katana Zero Dialogue Tree.jpg: It has appropriate ALT text and a clear and defined purpose in the article. As I have already suggested twice above, I'd recommend archiving the source link, but none of this is required for FACs. My primary concern with this image is the size. The image is rather small and the text, which is the purpose for its inclusion, is not clear in the article. When I look at the image in the article, I cannot read the text and it is honestly difficult to make it out. Would there be a way to include a larger picture?

I hope this image review is helpful. Apologies in advance as I will not be able to do a full review, but I thought I should at least help a little. My only concern is the size of the Dialogue Tree screenshot, but everything else checks out to me. I hope you are having a great week so far. Aoba47 (talk) 02:38, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Aoba47, thanks for the review. I've archived all three images. As for the third's size, its primary purpose is to illustrate the dialogue tree system and use of color, rather than the text. I personally think both the dialogue tree and use of color are clear within the image and reading the text itself is not necessary. JOEBRO64 18:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I am still uncertain, but I do appreciate and understand your rationale. This passes my image review. Best of luck with your FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 19:43, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Support Comments by DWB

First off, it seems to be a thorough and well researched article which is what I like to see. Now for all the complaints I have!

• "When Zero uses precognition to mock V, he shoots Al-Qasim." Who is the one shooting Al-Qasim?
  • V, clarified JOEBRO64 14:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
• "In the present, Snow informs her superior of V's death, the Dragon contemplates a board of evidence, and Comedy and Tragedy taunt the girl as she cowers in fear." I can see in the plot the Girl disappears and then she is here, so is this saying that the Girl is a prisoner? Because some of the events seem to be hallucinations it's confusing what is going on here.
  • So the game doesn't actually explain where she is or what happened to her—the credits end with a short scene of Comedy and Tragedy taunting her in a dark room. The game heavily implies that the girl actually isn't real and is only a manifestation of Zero's last shreds of innocence, but unfortunately for a Wikipedia plot summary never outright says it (the closest it comes is when the landlady denies she existed) and I didn't come across any reliable sources that mention the implication. JOEBRO64 14:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
• Are there any portals to add at the bottom of the article such as 2010s, video games, etc. to interlink with relevant projects?
  • I've added the video games and 2010s portals. I wasn't sure if there were any else that would fit; I almost did the USA one since Stander's American but he spent a substantial amount of the development working in Canada, so I wasn't sure if either would fit. JOEBRO64 14:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
• I've done some minor copy editing, if there wasn't a four month wait on the Guild I would say it could maybe use an overall copy edit. The lead for instance seemed quite repetitive about mentioning the time manipulation/precognition so I've tried to make that flow a little better and remove the short sentences.
  • I did some additional copyediting around the article to alleviate any instances of repetition/verbosity I noticed. JOEBRO64 13:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
• Refs #14, #27, #31, #33, #40, #41, and #42 do not appear to be archived
  • Got 'em. JOEBRO64 13:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
• Same for #21, #25, and #44. I know some of these are YouTube but occasionally they can be archived.
  • Got 'em. JOEBRO64 13:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
• I prefer text to videos, but I assume for a small indie game it's hard to get all of the information in print.
• Overall it looks fine, it sounds like an interesting game that I might give a try. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 11:47, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @Darkwarriorblake: responded above, many thanks for taking the time to review. JOEBRO64 13:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Good job JoeBro, good luck with the rest of your nomination. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 14:26, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Blue Pumpkin Pie

• Lead

The summarization in the Lead suggests Zero is a Katana-wielding Assassin. But in the Plot, the description is different.

Neither contradicts one another. The fact he's a katana-wielding assassin is established in the Gameplay, the Plot doesn't contradict this—it just adds that he's a war veteran. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Plot

• "The psychiatrist supplies him with a drug as treatment, but their relationship becomes strained as Zero deviates from assigned objectives and learns the psychiatrist is lying about the reasoning behind the assassinations." Is this sentence necessary so early in the plot? It seems to make the Plot more awkward because, in the following paragraph, it suggests that the Psychiatrist is still an ally to Zero.

• Zero continuing to work for the psychiatrist doesn't contradict the fact their relationship is strained. I personally think it's important to establish that the psychiatrist and Zero's relationship becomes strained early—it happens regardless, but when it happens depends on the player's choices. I worded it in a way to make it clear that it doesn't happen immediately. If there's any other problems, just let me know. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "At his apartment, the girl gives Zero a videotape that contains a recording of V, a Russian mobster, torturing and killing Zero's neighbors." Is this detail relevant to the Plot?

• Yeah—it's the story's main introduction to V, the moment he becomes relevant. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "The next morning, V picks up Zero in his limousine. V seeks to recreate Chronos, a drug the New Mecca government gave to soldiers during the Cromag War, and offers to partner with Zero, who refuses. Zero tracks V to an abandoned film studio but is interrupted by the swordswoman Snow, who threatens Zero and leaves with V." Why does Zero need to track down V if he was just in his limousine? is it even necessary to point out that he's being picked up in a limousine? When Snow leaves with V, was it an escape? Or did they leave peacefully with Zero heeding the warning?

• I've condensed this and made it clearer. If it needs any more work let me know. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Zero hallucinates Comedy and Tragedy, two men wearing theater masks who taunt him about impending disaster in his future." The placement of this plot point is awkward. Was it at that point that he started to hallucinate about two individuals known as Tragedy and Comedy? Or is this something that is happening throughout the story? '

• This is the first time he hallucinates them. I've made the transition smoother. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Zero acquires a tape cassette but is cornered by the police. Comedy and Tragedy ask whether Zero wants to embody life or death. If he chooses life, the police kill Zero; if he chooses death, the police die, and Zero escapes, but Comedy and Tragedy warn that his actions will have consequences for others." Is this relevant to the main story? The current Plot doesn't make any note of it.

• No, it was added by someone else. I've removed it. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "A caller directs Zero to a training facility for NULLs, New Mecca's Chronos-enhanced soldiers." Another distractingly vague sentence. Is this caller anonymous? if they are not anonymous, who are they?

• The caller is anonymous. It's implied to be the Dragon but it isn't explicitly stated. I've made it slightly clearer. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Zero discovers his psychiatrist preparing to flee the city and kills him." Is there a reason why he killed him?

• Yeah, Zero's fed up with the psychiatrist's lies and takes out his rage on the psychiatrist. I've made this clear. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "He returns to his apartment but finds it burglarized and the girl missing. The landlady tells investigating police that no children lived in the building. When questioned, Zero flees and the police give chase." So are the police searching for the child? the events are confusing here.
  • The police are investigating the burglary—I've clarified it. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• I think there are too many small details that don't help the overall understandability of the story, and some key events or details seem to be missing. Just did a little digging and it seems like the character "the Dragon" isn't even referred to as the Dragon as much as the Plot implies, and goes by the name "Fifteen". I'm personally not sure it meets 1a. Might need a full rewrite In my opinion.
  • There's nothing missing that's not relevant to the plot—the plot is pretty vague, with a lot of foreshadowing and events left up to interpretation. "Fifteen" is the Dragon's "real" name but that's not relevant to the plot. There's no need for a full rewrite. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• Development

• The development has a lot of quotes that I don't think are necessary to explain the development process of the game. I say it borders on failing criteria FAC 1f (compliant with Wikipedia's copyright policy). I would reduce the number of quotes to only keeping the most necessary ones. A lot of the quoting structure is odd, I have never seen it the way it's done here, and MOS:QUOTE doesn't make much mention of the quoting style.

• I've gone through and paraphrased all the quotes that aren't necessary. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• He worked on multiple projects alongside it to "hedge my bets... [so] I didn't spend the last five years of my life only working on one game that flopped." This reads very awkwardly in my opinion. The sentence mixes first and third-person perspectives with awkward quoting. I'm not sure it's necessary to do a full word-for-word quote.

• Paraphrased. JOEBRO64 13:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Stander "wanted to make something more narratively-driven, that paid homage to all my favorite storytelling tropes and expanded on them in my own way... That was definitely a big part of [Katana Zero]: I had a story I wanted to tell." Same issue, an awkward mix of perspective writing. And once again, not sure if it's necessary to fully quote him in the prose to understand what he's saying.

• Paraphrased. JOEBRO64 13:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Stander focused on attention to detail and said that adding a single mechanic, such as a gun turret, "would mean tinkering with 20 different systems, like lighting and replay, to make it all cohesive". The quote isn't bad, but I would recommend sticking with summarizing the details or quoting Stander properly.

• I've paraphrased it. JOEBRO64 13:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Reception

• I find it odd that the Review prioritizes the order of visuals, audio, writing, and gameplay last. Considering it's a video "game", the gameplay should be highlighted much closer to the top.

• I personally don't see a problem with it—it's a structure I've used in most of my FAs, including the recently-promoted Donkey Kong Country. I tend to structure reception sections as presentation → gameplay. Presentation is usually the first things reviews focus on, before getting into how the game plays. JOEBRO64 13:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the Sales information belongs in the "Reception" section. Release information seems to be only about recording the different platforms and the timeline of the releases.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 08:21, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• I prefer to group sales with release as it's more relevant in the context of its release than whether critics liked it or not. It's similar to how film articles categorize the box office performance in the Release section rather than Reception. Again, I did this at Donkey Kong Country, which was recently promoted to FA. JOEBRO64 13:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Blue Pumpkin Pie: thank you for the thorough review! I've responded to all points above. JOEBRO64 13:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: So I watched some cutscenes of the story to get a better idea of the pacing of the Plot and made edits to help it flow better. I classified it as bold edits, so it is no problem if they all get reverted. I do have one question about the plot. "Zero is assigned to kill Al-Qasim, a wealthy industrialist, but is captured when he encounters V and his men storming Al-Qasim's mansion." The opening sentence for the third paragraph has no transition or connection from the previous paragraph. Was this the very next assignment Zero has following his hallucinations? Or were there other assignments in between?

I won't push for sales to be in Reception, nor the organization of the Reception having gameplay last.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 23:24, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Blue Pumpkin Pie: Yeah, it's the very next assignment, the day after Zero hallucinates. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:36, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Blue Pumpkin Pie: is there anything else? JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:43, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: I made some adjustments to make the Plot easier to understand with some word reorganization. It's still seems like some points aren't as necessary to understand the general plot. I asked for a second opinion but I haven't heard back.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 09:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Well i mulled it over, and after analyzing the plot, it's at least cohesive to read. So I'm going to put my support now.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 13:18, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Comments by CR4ZE (Support)

Hi Joe—sorry to hear the previous candidacy was unsuccessful due to a lack of interest; I've come close to that before. As such, I'd be glad to offer some commentary here and hope to get something to you over the weekend. Thanks! — CR4ZE (T • C) 08:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

My comments are mainly prose-focused. I normally copy-edit the minutiae as I read through and review, but I didn't do that at all here. Take that as a compliment :) There are queries nonetheless.

Lead

• Six wikilinks in the second sentence is superfluous. I can see "neo-noir", "bullet time" and "precognition" needing links, but "katana" and "assassin"? (Noted in Gameplay as well).
  • Removed the "katana", "assassin", and "amnesia"—I might've linked these on accident, as I wholeheartedly agree they're WP:OVERLINKed. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 00:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• "Began working" and "developed it" mean more or less the same thing; rework if possible. Can the SEAOFBLUE be avoided? (GameMaker/game engine).
  • I've moved GameMaker to later in the paragraph and removed "game engine".JOEBRO⁶⁴ 00:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• "He sought to make ... for inspiration". This sentence is a bit off. Could place either a comma or full stop after "cutscenes". "Korean cinema and films" reads weird.
  • I removed "Korean cinema" and added a comma after "cutscenes" JOEBRO⁶⁴ 00:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
    • No problem. You've got a little wiggle room if you want to add another point to this paragraph, but it's also great as is. Happy either way. — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Gameplay

• What happens if Zero doesn't clear the room of enemies within the time limit?
  • You've just got to restart. It's somewhat minor in the grand scheme of things, and sources say there's a time limit but don't explain the consequences of failing to meet it, so I've just gone ahead and removed it JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Either explaining the restart or trimming would have been fine with me. No problems! — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
• "Certain levels ... alternate player character" can you avoid saying "mission" three times?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• "frequently compared to Hotline Miami" more than one citation to support this would be good. You could try bundling two to three.
  • I've added the MCV interview, which mentions "the often-cited link to Dennaton Games' Hotline Miami, as both games feature a similar live/die/repeat cycle". I think I'd meant to do this before but it slipped my mind JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• "A May 2019 update" takes the reader right out of the paragraph's flow. If the date of the update needs to be mentioned at all (which I question), it could be rolled into a footnote.
  • I've removed the update bit JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Plot

• "Their relationship becomes strained" whose relationship? Zero and the pyschiatrist or Zero and the Dragon?
  • Zero and the psychiatrist, clarified JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• "precognitive abilities similar to Zero's. Zero..."/"another precognitive, Headhunter. Headhunter..." any way to avoid saying the same word twice in succession?
  • I've changed one of the "precognitive"s to "clairvoyant" JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• "and what allows him to predict the future" → "and that it allows him to predict the future" would be clearer?
  • Done. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Off-topic but damn this plot is weird. Love it.
  • Yeah it's one of the things I really enjoy about the game. It's really trippy and fever dream-like. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Might have to put it on my bucket list! — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Conception

• "Katana Zero was developed by the indie game creator Justin Stander under the studio name Askiisoft for six years" → "Katana Zero was developed over six years by the indie game creator Justin Stander under the studio name Askiisoft". I think this would be clearer, no?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Possibly an ENGVAR, which is fine, but should "The game was a mean of expression" be "means of expression"?
  • ah yeah that's a typo on my part. Fixed JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Design

• Katana Zero mentioned three times in the first paragraph. That's not bad but you could substitute with "the game"/"it", or just recast.
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
• "was frequently compared to ... Hotline Miami" again, I'd like at least one more citation to support this.
  • I think the one MCV source is sufficient here—it contains the following passage: "We bring up the often-cited link to Dennaton Games’ Hotline Miami, as both games feature a similar live/die/repeat cycle, but Stander puts that one to rest. 'A lot of people say Hotline Miami, that seems to be the big one...'" JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Did a quick spot-check; no problem at all — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
• "Drawing influence from Eastern culture..." this sentence says three different things but the connection between them is unclear. How did Eastern culture influence Stander's desire to subvert expectations? Or are you trying to say something else?
  • Good catch—I shifted things around a lot and looks like this got caught up in the wrong place. I moved it down to the Writing subsection because he's talking about the cinematic influences in the interview. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
• "to make the act of killing satisfying" is repeating itself from the section's opening sentence. If the whole point was to link these two together, it took us two paragraphs to get there, which is not ideal.
  • I've moved it up to the first paragraph and removed the repetition. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
• "to the point that there he made little progress for a year" typo?
  • Yup I have no idea how that happened lol. Fixed JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Music

• "Some tracks ended up in different levels than they were intended" could you not just drop "they were"?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Release

• "a teaser trailer was released in December 2015" the year is already stated in the prior sentence, so you can just say "December". Same thing with 2019 throughout the next paragraph.
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
• "The Switch version was temporarily banned in Australia" why?
  • Clarified. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Thanks. Would recommend archiving when you get a free moment. — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
• "offered free to Xbox Game Pass subscribers" as a long-time Game Pass subscriber, I don't like GP releases being described as "free". The game is no more "free" than Bridgerton is to Netflix subscribers. But good to know I can play this one day with my subscription (if it's still in the line-up)!
  • Removed "free". JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Reception

• "simultaneously focused and experimental" what does this mean?
  • That was my attempt to paraphrase "It's not too often that you hear a soundtrack that's both so focused and so willing to experiment with obscure genres". I've decided to use the quote itself, since it's probably a clearer way of expressing it. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:58, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Agree, but I just noticed you're using Nintendo Life twice in successive sentences and introducing them each time... Maybe paraphrase the second quote a little, see if you can combine sentences, work another reviewer in between, something? Up to you. — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
• At the end of paragraph four, is it necessary to list the individual reviewers commenting on the story and the ending? Why can't you just use plural pronouns?
  • I've condensed all the individual reviewers JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:58, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
• Would you disagree that "get the hang of them" is borderline informal?
  • I've changed "get the hang of" to "learn" JOEBRO⁶⁴

Accolades

• See WP:VG/AWARDS as well as relevant discussions (1, 2, 3). IGN would need to be cut from the table (but I believe can go in prose?). I need your justification for why NAVGTR is notable, as it looks like a mere listicle to me.
  • Moved IGN to prose. I've seen NAVGTR listed in other articles but I couldn't find any strong justification for keeping it so I binned it. (It was already there when I did the rewrite, so I doubt I would've even added it had it not been there already.) JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:58, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
    • No problems. If you find a good reason to add it back in (i.e. used/reproduced in RS), that's fine too. — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Other considerations

• Often, the word "that" can be removed from a sentence with no loss of integrity or meaning. I spotted a couple of "thats" in 3.3 Writing that could go.
  • Good catch, I've removed all those that weren't strictly needed. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:58, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Nice, you cut even more than I was expecting. I'm happy; just check you are. — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

That's it from me for now. Pushbacks and difference of opinion are welcomed. This is a really cool sounding game and the article is overall written to an exceptional standard. — CR4ZE (T • C) 06:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments CR4ZE; I should finish responding within the next day or two. It's midterms week so my time on Wikipedia has been somewhat limited but things should peter out and I'll get these finished shortly. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 02:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

No problems. Take your time. — CR4ZE (T • C) 07:00, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

@CR4ZE: thank you for the thorough review! I've responded to every point above. If there's anything that still needs work, just let me know. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:58, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for tending to my remarks. I've spot-checked your changes and am pleased; note there's a couple of very minute follow-ups noted above. None important enough to delay my full support for this candidacy. Great work putting together a brilliant article! — CR4ZE (T • C) 13:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Did you see my comment about Nintendo Life? — CR4ZE (T • C) 02:43, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: perhaps not, so I'll ping you instead ;) — CR4ZE (T • C) 01:27, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

@CR4ZE: ah crap I did in fact not see it, how's it looking now? JOEBRO⁶⁴ 01:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Great, but maybe a touch too "quotey"? You could paraphrase the "show-stealing" bit, and/or combine and summarise with IGN or Destructoid: "There's also a fitting and fantastic retro-electro soundtrack to go along with the action"/ "the audial delight that is Ludowic and Bill Kiley’s soundtrack". — CR4ZE (T • C) 01:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I've paraphrased the "show-stealing" bit and combined it with the Destructoid quote. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 02:23, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Awesome, looking good. Thanks again Joe. Look forward to seeing this well-deserved promotion. — CR4ZE (T • C) 04:43, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Support from The Night Watch

I have taken a general look at the article, and it appears to be good. I spot checked a few refs here and there (1-11) and they appear to be fine. Prose is good. I was a little concerned at the long plot section, but it seems understandable enough. I'm happy to support this nomination. ‡ Night Watch ω (talk) 00:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Source review by Czar

• Almost all sources are high-quality WP:VG/RS. The lower-quality sources—Gamereactor, Forbes, Bandcamp, TechRaptor, PS4Blog.net, Geeky Grind—are justifiable as WP:SPSAS and are used sparingly, as appropriate. As one place for improvement: Are there no better sources for SxSW, the 2020 IGF, or the Xbox and Luna release dates? E.g., here's [2][3][4] for IGF.
  • Replaced the Xbox and IGF refs. Didn't seem to be any better refs for Luna or the first SXSW award, unfortunately, so the current ones will have to suffice JOEBRO⁶⁴ 21:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
• Not needed for this review but as an aside, it is continually clunky for video game FAs to dateline a bunch of release dates in prose as its own paragraph—it's exactly the sort of stuff that belongs as a table in a sidebar.
  • I assume you're referring to the third paragraph in the lede? I've moved the Xbox and Luna releases down and removed the exact dates. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:57, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  I was thinking of the second Release paragraph that follows the format of "X release date on Y platform"—the type of repetition that fits better in a table than prose, even if the latter is the norm. czar 03:48, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

• "IGN staff" and "MCV staff" should be removed as the generic author per Help:Citation Style 1#Authors and because it's implied when no singular author is specified
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:57, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
• Harcore => Hardcore
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:57, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
• The in-line location citations for the podcast are very distracting to read through. A short footnote format, like {{sfn}}, definitely would be a better footnote option there.
  • Nice idea—I've done it. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:57, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
• Did a handful of spotchecks and they all checked out

Nicely done! Source review passed. czar 16:32, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

• As one passing prose comment, I wholly agree with BPP about the plot—it has too much granular detail for an element that isn't a focal point of the work. It should be shortened both for due weight and for readability. It introduces so many characters in such a short space as to be unintelligible to a general reader. Realistically, I'd be curious what source coverage justifies needing to go into more depth than a single paragraph on the broad strokes of the topic. Per the VG MOS, if it's only a minor element of the platformer, it should fit within the Gameplay section—it's not like this is a film or narrative game where the point is the plot. czar 16:45, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Disagree it should be cut to one paragraph and integrated into the Gameplay, but a snip certainly wouldn't hurt. I think paring back to just the key moments and reducing the supporting cast would be enough. I wasn't concerned in my assessment, because it's still shy of the 700 word limit. — CR4ZE (T • C) 02:48, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
  • @Czar: thank you for the source review! I'll take a stab at shortening the plot tonight based on what the sources consider significant. (I started but it's going to take me at least an hour and I don't have time right now.) I think a standalone plot section will probably remain justified—I usually agree that platformer articles do not need stories, but Katana Zero's was a big point for the developer and is talked about in more than passing in reviews. I'll ping you again once I've done some work. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:57, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
    • @Czar and CR4ZE: I've given the plot section a big snip and used more independent (non-primary) sources for the details. Let me know what you think—I'm open to any further suggestions. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 21:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
      • Much improved, but I still think the reliance on primary sources beyond the first paragraphs indicates that those details were not quite noteworthy to the secondary source writers/reviewers. The reader would benefit from knowing about the Chronos subplot, the arc with V, the arc with the psychologist, and maybe some details of how Zero evolves over the game, but apart from that, the rest still reads as trivia to a general reader: the NULL program, Comedy and Tragedy, the girl, the individual missions, Dragon—all of this doesn't show up in a crucial way in the rest of the article. Even the Reception touches on the story in broad strokes, not delving into aspects of the plot as individually crucial. The full plot summary would be a good addition to an external wiki, but for our general audience I'd still wager that there is a one-paragraph version here based on secondary sources that would suffice. czar 21:46, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

        @Czar: integrated the plot into a subsection in Gameplay alongside the dialogue tree info. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 01:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

No strong feelings from me. Looks good. — CR4ZE (T • C) 01:28, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Looks great! czar 03:46, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I initially supported FA when it was a dedicated Plot section. I'm not against the premise summary style, but there are way too many refs in between sentences that affect readability. And I'm normally not against sentences using em dashes, but they're being used a little too frequently and it definitely affects the flow. In my opinion, em dashes should be used at a minimum if possible and whatever the side-thought the em dashes are being used for, they must be short enough to resume proper flow. Otherwise, they might as well be their own sentence.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 20:47, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

@Blue Pumpkin Pie, the mid-sentence refs are needed for WP:TSI. If you're referring to that that second sentence in the first paragraph, it has much less to gain from grouping all the refs at the end of the sentence and making the reader guess which portion came from where. The current sentence is MOS-compliant.

As for the em dashes parentheticals, I don't think they necessarily impede the text but I've recasted them. czar 12:09, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Czar: MOS-compliant isn't the only thing we look for in an FA. I don't think it meets criteria 1a. The flow of the sentence is broken up too many times by refs and the some sentences are long-winded. Combine the two problems and it's not even readable.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 12:43, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It meets criteria 1a. Every sentence is grammatically correct, there are no run-ons, and the refs are at the end of punctuation to back up the claims, which is how refs work. I really have no idea what the issue is here. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:15, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

There was at best a minor gain by recasting the emdashes, but I agree there's no issues otherwise. I tweaked the "child in the hut" bit; perhaps you can all agree it's clearer. Refine as you see fit if not. — CR4ZE (T • C) 15:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) These are my concerns:

• "Subject Zero,[13] an amnesiac veteran with the ability to predict the future,[14][15] assassinates drug dealers for his psychiatrist,[7] who acts as his handler.[16]"

^^This sentence looks like a run-on to me. This looks like it can be more than one sentence. Considering that the premise/plot section is now integrated back into gameplay, would it be better to describe the story in a more descriptive way rather than a narrative-style? Such as "The story follows Subject Zero, an amnesiac war veteran with the ability to predict the future.[14][15] He assassinates drug dealers for his psychiatrist who acts as his handler.[16]

• "News media ascribes Zero's killings to a serial killer known as the Dragon. Zero experiences recurring nightmares of a scientist running into a hut to warn a child to hide soon before a soldier enters and shoots the scientist. Zero believes the child is himself.[17] He discusses his nightmares with the psychiatrist, who supplies him with a drug as treatment.[18] Zero also befriends a young girl living next door to his apartment,[6][12] and he becomes attached to her.[15]"

^^This group of sentences don't all flow together. Just facts that seem randomly put side by side. There seems to be a lack of weight to some of these pieces of information. Based on looking into the plot, it would make sense to incorporate some of this information in the following paragraph where it goes into detail on what kind of events happen between episodes/gameplay. But also, I also believe that the plot section before wasn't a bad idea, just needed to be summarized.

• "After the Dragon, a separate swordsman with clairvoyant abilities similar to Zero's, dismembers and abducts V,[21] Zero learns he was a supersoldier and his abilities come from the drug, Chronos,[22] whose withdrawal effects cause users to become trapped within their minds."

^^is it important to note that V dismembers and abducts V in this point? Or is it the fact that he encounters the real Dragon for the first time?

• Zero, tired of being manipulated, kills the psychiatrist and the girl goes missing,[24] and the story ends on a cliffhanger.[12][15]

^^One too many ands.

If it were upto me I would've kept the plot section and just summarized it to three paragraphs. First paragraph the initial exposition provided at the start. The middle paragraph summarizing the recurring events, such as zero finding his marks dead before he has a chance to do it himself, recurring nightmares, Interacting with the girl. V interfering. Then the last paragraph summarizes closing events.

At this moment, I'm not able to really give as much detail that I want due to work and only responding during lunch. But I'll give more detailed responses after.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 16:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I've done some alterations to the first sentence, but I really don't see the issue with the others. The second set of sentences isn't disjointed. We say Zero kills people, we say who news media ascribes said killings to, and then we note the other key points. The Dragon abducting V bit serves to establish the real Dragon and V's fate. And after thinking, I think merging the plot with the dialogue tree gameplay information was a good call; the two are intrinsically linked, as plot beats differ depending on player choices. I don't see much left to discuss. Three editors have disagreed with you and I feel like this is needlessly protracting a process that's coming to an end. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 17:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Well i wouldn't say its complete disagree. It's been an open dialogue of Cr4ze, Czar, and yourself not seeing the flaws initially, And I bring up more detailed concerns. Which does result enough to make modifications.

I thought the story was merged with the gameplay because the level of detail in the story wasnt given too much weight more than it being intrinsically linked to the gameplay. There are other articles that offer dialogue trees that offer more significance to the plot but still have their respected sections.

it's upto you to decide what you want to do. And I don't mind either way if it's merged with the gameplay section or not. I just think merging it created more problems than solving it.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 18:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

For the record, I think these are minor points. If you think these sentence are better when split, it would have taken a fraction of the effort to just make the edit. I've done so now and you should feel free to edit further. Usually that is a better method than holding up an entire nomination unless there's something about this section that warrants this level of discussion. czar 03:34, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Czar. As I said at the start of my review above, in almost every PR/GA/FA review I've ever conducted, I copy-edit the minutiae myself so the nominator can focus on the larger points. They'll compare diffs and either tweak to their preference or query if needed on the review page. That should've been the approach here. Not to press the coords, but unless there's more reviewers forthcoming, this one is more than good to go. — CR4ZE (T • C) 05:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't see the issue as small as you. I do see more and more improvements. But I still think it has the granular detail. And this is a bigger change that is merged back into gameplay. It's not like we can edit it like a normal plot either.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 16:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I do want to mention that I do want to make the plot section easier to understand but time has not been on my side. Mobile edits are as much as I can do and with the full Citation in the middle of the the sentences, it can be very easy to make mistakes (or not see the problem). Which is why I normally love them into the reflist.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:42, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.