Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jessie Murray/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 31 August 2023 [1].

Jessie Murray edit

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 09:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jessie Murray was an interesting person. She founded one of the first psychotherapeutic consultancies in Britain and helped train a generation of analysts in what was a nascent field of study. History has slightly overlooked her achievements partly through misogyny and partly through psycho-politics of Freudians versus anyone who wasn't a devotee of Freud. A dedicated suffragist who (literally) wrote the first book on Black Friday, she died way too early. I took this through GAN a few years ago when there were multiple gaps in the story that I couldn't fill. (It must have been frustrating for Usernameunique reviewing at me not being able to answer many of the questions), but I've belatedly managed to fill a couple of the gaps, even if there are still plenty of others that the sources still don't cover. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Are there any images of the subject that could be added? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:06, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately not. One of the sources that examines a number of the early female psychotherapists notes that several of them don't have locatable photographs (although they don't name Murray), and I couldn't find anything in my searches too, which is a shame. - SchroCat (talk) 14:24, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley edit

A few quibbles about the drafting:

Early life, education and professional training: 1867–1915

"Sometime later Murray also attended the lectures ..." – all four editions of Fowler [obsessive? moi?] say that in this sort of use it is usual to write "some time" rather than "sometime".

Women's suffrage activism

"used tax resistance to protest the lack of vote" – missing "against" after "protest" unless you're writing in American.
"The clinic was one of the first ... offering their services ... they began ... their approach" – you ought to decide whether the clinic was singular or plural. The former seems more convincing to me, but it's your call.

Final years

"In 1915 Murray met the writer Marie Stopes" – Stopes undeniably wrote, but it seems an odd label nonetheless

Impact

"Many students and staff became leading psychoanalysts ... This included Marjorie Brierley..." – perhaps "They", rather than "This"?
"dismissive of the clinic and Murray, to the point he was disingenuous" – could do with a "that" after "point"
"the clinic split, with Glover leaving with some of the staff and students" – too many withs. I'd resort to a semicolon if I were you.
"The clinic's finances were also parlous" – Fowler again: in the original 1926 edition the old boy called "parlous" "a word that wise men leave alone"; the current 2015 edition is not so prescriptive, but mentions perilous, hazardous and dangerous as possibly preferable alternatives.

That's all I have. Over to you. Tim riley talk 12:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Tim; all duly attended to. - SchroCat (talk) 13:14, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support the elevation of this article to FA. It seems to me as comprehensive as it could possibly be, is well sourced, balanced and an excellent read. Alas for the lack of a picture of Murray, as Nikkimaria notes, above, but as one is not available, so be it. Meets the FA criteria, in my view. Tim riley talk 13:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Edwininlondon edit

Interesting article. With the caveat I am neither an expert in the field nor a native speaker, just a few small comments:

took statements from the suffragettes --> I would wikilink suffragettes
She also studied --> that's 3 times also in short succession
10s 6d to the Tax League -> Tax Resistance League?
as one another --> is this needed?
Her thesis was "Nervous --> Her thesis was titled "Nervous ?
I went with "her thesis was on..." instead

Otherwise, all looks good. I looked at the formatting of the references and could not find anything wrong with it. Edwininlondon (talk) 11:00, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Edwininlondon. All done bar the last, which I've slightly differently. Many thanks for your comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. I believe the article meets the FA requirements, so I Support. Edwininlondon (talk) 16:40, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HAL edit

Maybe shorten "attended the lectures of the French psychologist" to "attended lectures by French psychologist" but that may be a BrEng. Assume AmEng/BrEng differences for all following comments, and feel free to disregard those.
Half done: "French psychologist" is a false title, so the definite article is needed. (This is much more common in BrEng than AmEng, which tends to have less of an issue with the false title.)
"to set one up" doesn't seem very encyclopedic. Ditto later usage. (Maybe "establish one"?)
Should "in-fighting" be "infighting"?
"In-fighting" is the noun form; "infighting" is the verb
- D'oh!
The sentence During its nine years of existence, it trained a number of high-profile individuals who formed the next generation of psychoanalysts and laid the foundation of the study in the UK is somewhat repetitive as it's already been stated that Several of the staff who worked and trained at the clinic became leading psychoanalysts.
"was later adopted by the International Psychoanalytical Association." - what year or general decade?
No idea on this - the sources don't clarify at all. - SchroCat (talk) 10:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Might consider linking life partnership
" for treatment by isotonised seawater" - treatment of what?
Should "middle-class" be hyphenated?
"and retired from the clinic" is a dependent clause and doesn't need a comma preceding 'and' (...at least stateside)
"wrote her will" to maybe "wrote her own will" for clarity - not a big issue
Can the "British Psychoanalytical Society" be abbreviated to an acronym in subsequent uses?
"was wound up" - is this a British colloquialism?
BrEng, but not a colloquialism! I've swapped for liquidated. - SchroCat (talk) 10:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a huge fan of all the semicolons in the lead, but that's really a matter of personal choice, so I'll leave that up to you.
~~Is there really no available image of Murray?~~

That's all I got. Nice work. ~ HAL333 03:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers HAL333. All sorted (in these edits), except where I've explained above. Thanks very much! - SchroCat (talk) 10:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support. ~ HAL333 14:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. I've belatedly also trimmed the semi-colons in the lead too. - SchroCat (talk) 13:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Golden edit

"it laid the foundation of the study" - I'd replace "the study" with "psychological evaluation" since the name of the study hasn't been mentioned yet in this paragraph.
Done. - SchroCat (talk) 13:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"In about 1880 Frances Murray and her children travelled to Edinburgh, and by 1891 they were living in London." - That's a significant gap of 11 years. By "travelled", do you mean they relocated to Edinburgh and then to London? Or did they visit Edinburgh temporarily, return to India, and then move to London?
The sources are a little unclear, but probably the former. I've tweaked slightly to add that they settled in Edinburgh, which is about as far as the sources go. - SchroCat (talk) 13:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Murray was a member of the Women's Tax Resistance League" - Was she a member of this organisation concurrently with her membership in the Women's Freedom League? Or did she leave the former and then join the latter? Knowing the year she joined these organisations would also be helpful.
Not clear from the sources, although probably membership of both simultaneously. There were several groups and splinters in the suffrage movement with overlapping membership for many. I've added a date we know Murray was with the Tax Resistance League, but there's not a huge amount more that can be added from the sources. - SchroCat (talk) 13:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any further suggestions or questions. The article is already in excellent shape. What an intriguing life story! I hope to see an article about Turner on Wikipedia someday. — Golden ^talk 14:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Golden, that's very good of you. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy with the changes. I gladly support. — Golden ^talk 13:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Vat edit

Just putting down the marker quickly -- I have little doubt I'll be able to pass it very soon (within a day or two at most). Vaticidalprophet 21:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review is a pass. I spent a little bit double-checking the IA link to the cited version for The Psychology of Self-Consciousness -- their version is the American edition while the British one is cited here, and the pagination is very subtly different, including not numbering(/lettering) the dedication -- but it wasn't anything that could reasonably be called a 'verification issue'. Also, fixed a typo :) Excellent work from excellent sources. Vaticidalprophet 00:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz edit

Hi SchroCat, not much to quibble about...

move good article template up to beneath short description

lede

suffragette - is linked twice in lede
two organisations that took direct action in their campaign for women's suffrage - 2 orgs so 'campaigns'?

Early life, education and professional training: 1867–1915

was born in Hazaribagh, British India on - add geocomma
then enrolled as student at the - missing a

Women's suffrage activism

Image Black Friday Alt suffragette lying on the floor - ground
while Turner's two sisters were members of the - I cant access Valentine, just checking they were definitely Turner's sisters not Murray's (only because you mention before Murray had two sisters)
the memorandum was presented - their memorandum?
to protest against the lack of vote - for women or women's vote

Medico-Psychological Clinic

Quinton Polyclinic, where they treated of gastroenteritis in infants - remove of
Clinic at 14 Endsleigh Street, where they both lived - where is Endsleigh st?
that could be afforded by middle class patients - add hyphen (per middle-class families)

Notes

note c. based on Consumer Price Index - add 'the' per note b

References

ref 10 Atkinson 2018, 4452. - what's that?
I am not actually contesting this, simply trying to learn what it is. I understand the loc parameter is used when page numbers are not appropriate. The other Atkinson notes have page numbers, and having not used a Kindle, I am wondering what 4452 might refer to. JennyOz (talk) 11:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry JennyOz - I meant to look into this but forgot! I've tweaked this now so it's also a page number. - SchroCat (talk) 12:28, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and here's me eagerly anticipating learning another intricacy! Thanks, JennyOz (talk) 13:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Journals

Hall, Lesley ... Study of SexPsychology - add space