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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jørgen Jensen (soldier)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 23:27, 18 June 2018 [1].

Jørgen Jensen (soldier) edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:57, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jensen is the first South Australian Victoria Cross recipient I've brought to FAC, part of a long-term project I'm working on to get all the SA VC recipients to FA. He was a Danish-born immigrant to Australia who was awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions at Noreuil, France in April 1917 while serving with the 50th Battalion. His citation for the award mentions that he pulled a grenade from his pocket and pulled out the pin with his teeth! I believe I've gathered up all the material regarding him that is available. This article went through GAN and Milhist A-Class review recently. Thanks in advance to all those who take a look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:57, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Ian edit

More of a placeholder for the moment, I'll try and make time for a full review (recusing as coord obviously) in due course. For now:

  • I recall George MacDonald Fraser pointing out in a non-fiction work that pulling grenade pins with the teeth was a hoary old movie cliche and that anyone trying it for real would likely find themselves requiring a set of dentures. Is it attested to anywhere apart from the Gazette?
  • It is repeated in the online AWM profile of Jensen, but the citation surely pre-dates the idea becoming a hoary old movie cliche? I thought that was more associated with The Rat Patrol etc, WWII TV shows made after that war? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well I think it was a movie (and TV) cliche when Fraser made his observation, and it's more just idle curiosity from me about whether anyone else mentioned it. I think you've done the right thing by leaving it to the Gazette citation. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:22, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As it was pretty common for people to have all their teeth removed at adolescence in this era, he may already have had a full set of dentures. Nick-D (talk) 10:47, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you think you'd be able to dig out any specifics on the war-related injuries that eventually killed him?
  • I imagine it was the head wound, but none of the sources say exactly what it was, the answer is probably only in his repatriation file. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for a quick first pass. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:18, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Returning, leaning support...

  • I've taken two passes at the prose and am pretty happy with it now as long as I haven't misinterpreted anything -- feel free to argue with me about my tweaks.
  • Haven't exactly spotchecked sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing but I did pay close attention to anything cited to his personnel file at the National Archives and felt a couple of tweaks to the prose were needed to comply with the black-and-white facts presented therein. Of course if you think I missed something pls let me know.
  • Structure and level of detail seem appropriate for the subject.
  • Sources generally look reliable although there are a few I'm not familiar with; also I'd prefer to see Nikki or Brian appraise ref formatting if they can spare the time, as some of the styling isn't my cup of tea but may well be acceptable.

Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support now, well done PM. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ian. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:00, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from FunkMonk edit

  • Danish speaker here, so I guess I have to comment. FunkMonk (talk) 02:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Christiane Sorensen" There is no such name as "Sorensen", it should be "Sørensen". but what does the source say?
  • One source says "son of Joergen Christian Jensen, farmer and wool merchant, and Christiane, known as Jensen.", the other says Christiana Sorensen with a dot above the first o.
A dot, like "ó" or something? Strong indication that whoever wrote the source simply didn't have an ø on his keyboard/typewriter (like those that wrote "Joergen" and "Logstor")... The name "Sorensen" doesn't exist written that way in Danish (only used when Scandinavians move to countries that don't use ø). FunkMonk (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:45, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who was apparently also known as Jensen" Wasn't that just because she took the name from her husband? What does the source say specifically?
  • See above.
  • Could the citation be moved to the end of the quote instead of before it?
  • I prefer to do all quotes in this way
  • "In April 1922, a photograph of Jensen and his horse-drawn cart, with "J. C. Jensen V.C." painted on the side, was published on the front page of The Sunday Times newspaper in Sydney" This photo should be in the public domain now, is it available? Seems a bit of a tease to describe a photo in such detail without showing it.
  • No doubt it is PD, but as you can see [2] it is of really poor quality, which is why I didn't clip it.
Hmmm, yeah, that does seem pretty awful. The original photo may exist somewhere, but of course, that doesn't mean you have to find it. FunkMonk (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jensen died of war-related causes" That's very vague, the intro at least says "injuries", so it could be specified here too. Are there really no more details than that?
  • changed to injuries. There isn't anything more specific in the sources, but he was shot in the head, so probably related to that.
  • Any children?
  • Not mentioned in any of the sources.
  • There seem to be more good photos on Commons[3], why not use any? Plenty of room in the article. Though the images on Commons are small for some reason, I see they exist in larger res at the source pages.
This one[4], for example, specifically says "This item is in the Public Domain". In any case, all non-artistic photos published in Australia before 1 January 1955 are PD, so we should be safe with everything involving this man. FunkMonk (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Added a pic on his way home, after I swapped in the new PD-AustGov license which applies worldwide. The other portrait with sergeant rank is difficult as we don't have publication details so it can have a PD-US license. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:20, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, perhaps add the date to the caption? I uploaded the higher res version. FunkMonk (talk) 16:48, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
  • I'll continue the review soon. FunkMonk (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and joined the battalion at Gallipoli" State this is in Turkey. All readers may not know such details.
  • Done.
  • Any info on where in the head he was hit?
  • No, unfortunately.
  • "He married Katy Herman" Spelled "Katey" on his gravestone for some reason...
  • Yes, I saw that, but checked his marriage record online and it says Katy.
  • Not sure if it is relevant enough, but I found this 2005 Danish article about the Danish crown prince and his Australian born wife visiting the Canberra war museum and hearing about Jørgen Jensen:[5]
  • Support - I think this looks quite good now, and I guess there is not really much more information to add about him. FunkMonk (talk) 15:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry to be back, but I just googled some Danish sources about Jensen, and found some info which might be of use, and you could perhaps see if it is corroborated in your sources. FunkMonk (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • He seems to have had the distinction of being the first person born outside a Commonwealth country to receive the Victoria Cross (out of only 14), as well as the first of three Danes to receive it:[6][7]
This[8] source (a site for local news) also states he is one of only 14 people outside the Commonwealth to receive the cross, and one of three Danes. The source also states specifically that no letters or diaries are known to document Jensen's life, only military journals. FunkMonk (talk) 11:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FunkMonk I added it, but now I'm thinking about whether we need a better source than a local news website for this claim, as I looked at List of Victoria Cross recipients by nationality and there seems to be at least 14 non-Commonwealth ones, and four Danes (given it doesn't currently include Jensen as a Dane, having him as Australian). I would add that the list I've linked isn't well cited, so could be incorrect. Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That list also has another 58 with "uncertain nationality". I think I'm going to treat it as an exceptional claim, and set it aside on the talk page for the present. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's probably wise. I've been caught out once or twice using claims of "one of only <insert number here> recipients" from otherwise reliable sources only to have someone discover another recipient the first source hadn't accounted for. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a memorial monument for him in Løgstør that was unveiled by the Australian ambassador in 2006[9], and every year a wreath is placed there on the anniversary of the war's end:[10] In 2014, the 100th anniversary of the war, a wreath was placed by the Australian ambassador.
  • According to this[11] source, his mother was a single parent and an agricultural servant. Jensen himself is said to have grown up under troubled circumstances, but was a good student, and went to sea through working in the fishing industry.
  • The above source also states that as a partial invalid he received a small pension, worked various jobs, and died from illness directly and indirectly related to his serious war injury.
  • A Danish book about Jensen was published in 2006[12], I could imagine it has more info about his life from before he left Denmark. It was supposedly the writing of that book which sparked local interest in the man and the erection of the monument, as few had heard of him before.
  • G'day FunkMonk. Have now added material from these two articles, but could you check I've got the translations right? Also not sure whether to give the title of the book in the narrative, or to create a Further reading section and include it there. Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think the additions look good! I think the mention of the book is enough, this is the English Wikipedia after all, so I dont think adding it to further reading will help many people. As for better sources, I'll be on the look-out, but it seems Jensen isn't particularly well-known across Denmark, and those local news sources were the most reliable ones I could find that mentioned the Commonwealth (and the further details about the man). FunkMonk (talk) 12:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Nikkimaria! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:01, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources edit

I've checked the formats and the links, all is well there. I converted a 10-digit isbn to 13-digit form, to maintain consistency. I think the source listed as "P00398.001" should have its proper title, as do the other AWM sources. Incidentally, I notice that in the caption for the P00398.001 image, Jensen is recorded as "Capt. J.C. Jensen", even though he is clearly wearing a corporal's stripes. But that's AWM's lookout, not ours. Brianboulton (talk) 21:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look through, Brian. I've adjusted the title of the photographic source. I've raised this error with the AWM, but they haven't got around to fixing it yet. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sturmvogel_66 edit

  • What's the significance of regimental number? It needs to be explained or deleted.
  • Explain bombers
  • Nicely done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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