Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Iron Man/archive1

Iron Man

Iron Man (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 27 April 2024, 21:57 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

• Featured article candidates/Iron Man/archive1

Nominator(s): Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

When engineering genius Tony Stark was kidnapped and forced to build a weapon, he turned the tables on his kidnappers by designing a powered suit of armor and fighting his way out. With this new armor, he pledged to fight evil as the superhero Iron Man! First created by Marvel Comics in 1963, Iron Man has since become one of the company's most popular characters, in no small part because of his central role in Marvel's films. In the 60 years since Iron Man was first created, the character has appeared in countless comic book stories and other media, commenting on issues like Cold War politics, alcoholism, and technological progress.

There's little precedent for comic book superheroes as featured articles. The topic area is rife with articles that depend on primary sources and go into excessive detail, both things that I had to address when I began working on this article. I've cleaned out the comic book citations entirely, replacing them with analytic, scholarly sources, supplemented by reviews, news articles, and character handbooks to fill in the details. I'm hoping that by refining this article to FA standards, it will create such a precedent for other articles in the comic book topic area. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text

• File:Iron_Man_(circa_2018).png needs a more expansive FUR. Ditto File:Tales_of_Suspense_39.jpg, File:Iron_Man's_armors.jpg

• File:TalesOfSuspense48.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Alt text added, source link replaced, and non-free use rationale improved for File:Iron_Man_(circa_2018).png. I don't see any missing non-free use information for File:Tales_of_Suspense_39.jpg or File:Iron_Man's_armors.jpg. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Generally speaking, the more non-free content is included, the stronger the rationale required for each. These rationales have no empty fields, but they are also not strong enough to justify having so much non-free media. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: "I'm hoping that by refining this article to FA standards, it will create such a precedent for other articles in the comic book topic area.". I hope so too. :) There are a great many comic book characters, superheroes having dominated the field for most of the media's existence, that have this kind of potential; right now at GA we currently have Captain America, Joker (character), Norman Osborn, and Spider-Man which have the most potential for FA, and several others that are GA but may not be suitable for FA, and easily dozens of other characters that could be GA or better if someone could find the time and energy to find the sources and basically rewrite them from scratch. Batman and Superman are former FA articles, so it would be nice to see a comics character back up there. BOZ (talk) 06:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Comments by ZKang123

I thought the film was being reviewed. That said, I shall review this article to the best of my ability.

No problems with the lead I can find.

Creation and premiere:

• "superhero comic books" – would it make a difference to just say "superhero comics"? Just want to make it more general, succinct and referring to the genre.
• "designing an unlikeable character and making him likeable." – suggest changing the connector "and" to "while"
• "Lee described the national mood toward Vietnam in which Iron Man was created as" – This chunk is worded rather weirdly. Would suggest "Lee described the national mood toward Vietnam at the time "when..." "
• "Heck continued as the primary Iron Man artist until 1965, as Kirby had obligations to other Marvel properties." – "Until 1965, Heck continued as the primary Iron Man artist, as Kirby had obligations to other Marvel properties." I find the initial wording a little confusing as it seems the reasoning was due to his tenure until 1965, and not exactly Heck's tenure itself.

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi ZKang123, just checking if further comments are on their way? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I will get back to this. A bit busy these days with other things at the moment.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Aoba47

• I would briefly mention Stark's relationship with Patsy Walker (aka Hellcat) in the "Romantic Interests" section. I believe it is notable enough as they did have an annual publication together (here).
  • Interesting. I would think that was significant, but the sources that cover this area don't mention her.
    • There is this source from Syfy about the relationship, but there does not seem to be too much high-quality coverage about it. It seems that the relationship is not particularly major or noteworthy in the overall scope of Iron Man's story so I will leave it up to you. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• What is the rationale for the infobox image choice? It is an awesome cover, but I could see the external pieces of armor potentially confusing readers who are not as familiar with the character design. I'd imagine that there would be a clearer image of just the armor by itself so why not go for something like that instead? Just to be clear, I am not saying you need to change it. This just came to my mind when I first saw the image.
  • This was the image that was there when I started editing the article. I had the same reservations, and I skimmed through Iron Man cover art while writing the article to see if there were any good alternatives, but nothing stood out to me. I'm sure there's something good out there however.
    • Thank you for the response. That makes sense to me. I do not have a good alternative in mind either. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• I do think File:TalesOfSuspense48.jpg has a strong enough justification for inclusion. The red-and-gold armor is already shown in the infobox and the all gold armor is already shown in File:Iron Man's armors.jpg so this image does not add much and could be removed without losing anything.
  • Agree, removed.
• This part, (As a superhero, his armor suits), is grammatically incorrect. It reads that the armor suits are the superhero.
  • Fixed.
• Errol Flynn is linked twice in the same paragraph. There are other instances of duplicate links, but I believe they are intentional as those kinds of links are more accepted now. Would that be the case?
  • Flynn definitely should not have been linked twice, and there were a few other accidental ones. I chose to use duplicate links in the character biography since it's a single narrative explanation, but I have no issue removing them if you or any other reviewers object.
    • Thank you for the response. I do not have any objections. I can understand the purpose of links in the biography as I can imagine readers jumping down to that section separately to read through. The links there would help them in that regard. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• I am uncertain about this part, (and for much of popular fiction). It is a bold claim to say that telling a story about an alcoholic is "unprecedented" in "popular fiction", particularly when there are no limits put on the type of media or the location. I just do not think this claim is true. I could believe the "unprecedented for a major comic book hero" claim though.
  • I imagine the author meant it in some context, but after looking at it again, it doesn't elaborate enough to where I feel comfortable using it like this. Removed.

• Thor, Wasp, and Scarlet Witch are each presented without the "the" in front of them in the "Fictional character biography" subsection. I am accustomed to always seeing them with the determiner used, but are they referenced without it?
  • It can go either way I think, but I'll add "the" to Wasp, Scarlet Witch, and Hulk since that's how it is in their respective articles.
    • Understandable. You would know best or at least better than me. I am just used to seeing them with the "the" attached, but it is up to what you think is best. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Would Iron Man's roller blades be worth mentioning in the article? It may not be notable enough or too trivial, but it is a sillier aspect of the character that I do enjoy.
  • I don't believe I encountered it in any of the sources, unfortunately.
    • Understandable. Thank you for the response. It is likely one of those things that would be discussed amongst fans as a silly fun fact over anything else. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• The section on Iron Man's reception seems rather short. I can appreciate going for a more summary-style approach for a character who has such a long history and will only continue to have more stories in the future, but it does abruptly jump from his reception on his debut to his MCU revival. I am talking about the "Cultural impact and legacy" just to be clear. What about his reception in the time between all of that?
  • I clarified that part of it is in the 1970s. "General" reception for a character like this is hard to come by beyond "he's a popular superhero".
    • That makes sense. Thank you for checking this point. I understand what you mean as I'd imagine a lot of the discourse falls into the same conversations. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• From my understanding, Iron Man was not a super popular character prior to the MCU, which is why the character was not sold off to other studios as was done with the X-Men and Spider-Man. The lead does mention that the MCU helped to popularize the character, but I think it would be worth mentioning this more explicitly in the article. That would be of course only if I am correct.
  • That's my understanding as well. Currently the lead says Downey's portrayal popularized the character, elevating Iron Man as one of Marvel's most recognizable superheroes and the cultural impact section says Iron Man became widely popular following the success of the film Iron Man, which made him one of Marvel's most recognizable characters, and Iron Man is credited with redefining the superhero film genre. Are there other aspects that you have in mind?
    • Thank you for including the quotes. I saw the part in the lead, but for whatever reason, I had read over the second bit in the article itself without fully processing it. Apologies for that. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Make sure to italicize titles in the citation titles. For instance, The Invincible Iron Man should be in italics for Citation 59 and Iron Man should be in italics for Citation 210. There are quite a few instances of this so I'd make sure to carefully go through the citations to correct it.
  • Done.
• It is not required for a FAC, but I would still encourage you to archive your web sources just to avoid any future headaches with potential link rot and death.
  • I never got around to figuring out how to do this automatically.
    • There is a bot for it (here), but I have not used it in a while as I had difficulty with it later on. Again, it is not required for a FAC so I would not worry about it too much. I just wanted to leave it more as a note than anything. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope these comments are helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will do a more thorough read-through of the article. Best of luck with the FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 16:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Aoba47, I've addressed everything so far. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses. I will look through the article again tomorrow if that is okay with you. I hope you have a great rest of your day. Aoba47 (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Apologies in advance for this admittedly super nitpick-y note. I am unsure about the word "iconic" in this part, (he builds his iconic Iron Man armor out of scrap), from the lead. I am not denying that the look is iconic, but at least in the beginning, wouldn't this reference the silver armor (i.e. File:Tales of Suspense 39.jpg) and not the iconic red and gold look?
  • Good point. Removed.
• Would it be worthwhile to include the civilian names for Black Widow and Hawkeye in the lead? I ask this because War Machine, Rescue, and Ironheart are all presented with their names so it may be nice to have some consistency. It would also signify which of these characters are being discussed, although I believe Natasha Romanova and Clint Barton are the ones that are most commonly associated with these roles.
  • Added.
• This may be a bit contradictory to my above comment, but is Rescue such a prominent and definitive aspect of Pepper Potts to be named and linked in the lead as opposed to just linking Pepper Potts? Is it done this way to match the other names in the listing?
  • Yeah, she's not known primarily as a "superhero". I've removed her from the lead. Maybe if "Rescue" catches on more in a few years then she can be listed with them.
• Would it be the Sub-Mariner or is just Sub-Mariner also correct? Apologies for harping on this part.
  • That's how it is in his article, so I've added it.
• It may be helpful to link inking in this part, (While inking the series), as well as other comic-specific words to help readers who may be less than familiar with them or want to read up on them. I cannot remember if other similar words are used in this article, but if so, they be worth linking.
  • Linked. The only other jobs I see are writer and artist, which probably don't need links.
• This is more of a clarification question. Marvel has recently started a new Ultimate Universe. Has there been any stories with Iron Man or a new version of the character in this?
  • A quick search doesn't show anything significant. Another thing where maybe it will come up in the next few years.
• Is there a reason why the Hoskin source does not have page numbers?
  • Yes, it's an encyclopedia-type source that uses entries by character instead of page numbers.

Here are some additional comments. I hope they are helpful. I will look through the article again later today. Thank you for your patience. I just want to make sure I look through the article as thoroughly as possible. Aoba47 (talk) 01:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• For this part, (Soviet spy Black Widow and American street criminal Hawkeye), do you mean the more specific Black Widow link for the Natasha version?
  • Fixed.

I believe this should be the end of my review. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 15:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Aoba47 I've replied to all of the above comments. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing everything. I support this FAC for promotion. I hope this review is helpful. I do have one quick additional comment. I would link Marvel Comics, superhero, and American comic books the first time that they are used in the article to be consistent with how they are linked in the lead. It is not a major point though so it does not hold up my support. Aoba47 (talk) 15:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

TBUA ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Impressive work. Considering the only comic book character FA is Anarky, is good to see one that is worth a promotion. igordebraga ≠ 18:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Igordebraga, just to clarify, you didn't see any details or any aspect that might need to be changed to best meet the featured article criteria? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Reading it extensively, could only find one issue, and it's less about the FA criteria than article consistency: the character biography ends on Infamous Iron Man, but the publication history above mentions the series that followed that. I understand that it's because it was the latest story on the ref (Marvel Encyclopedia), yet it still makes that section incomplete. If a reliable source summing up at least Tony Stark: Iron Man could be found, it would be very helpful. igordebraga ≠ 04:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Comments from PMC

Putting myself down here. If I don't get to it within a week, feel free to give me the gears. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Premeditated Chaos, It's been a week. :) Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Aaaah it's the gears. Okay, here we go. My FAC comments are always open to discussion, anything that's a hill I'm going to die on will usually be marked as such, otherwise I'm generally willing to be convinced. Suggested phrasings in particular are only suggestions, feel free to ignore or re-revise them. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:57, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• I have very little to gripe about here. This is a 7000-word article and the lead is a nice tight summary of the most salient points.
• "Iron Man's supporting cast has produced" - not sure of the phrasing here, as a supporting cast doesn't really "produce" things, but I can't think of how to replace it. Something like "Many of Iron Man's supporting cast and reformed villains have become superheroes in their own right, including blah blah blah"?
  • Reworded.
• You have "as well as" in two successive sentences
  • Reworded.
• "elevating Iron Man as one of" - "into" rather than "as" I think?
  • Changed.

Publication history - up to 1970s

• "Lee was interested in designing an unlikeable character and making him likeable". I think you could say a bit more here. It's not just that he was unlikeable generally, it's that per the source, Iron Man exists as he does - as a billionaire weapons developer - because Lee wanted to pique the presumably lefty audience. It underpins the entire character.
  • Specified that it was a generally anti-war audience.
• Some context for Howard Hughes and Errol Flynn please, so the unfamiliar reader doesn't have to stop and wander off to find out who they were and why they would use them as inspiration
  • Described them as a business magnate and an actor, respectively.
• Since you're comparing Tony Stark's visual design to Flynn here, you could probably get away with a photo of Flynn
  • Added. I tried to find an image other than the main one on Flynn's article, but all of the good ones had questionable copyright licenses.
• "Heck later said that when designing Tony Stark, he was attempting to create "an Errol Flynn type" this sentence is redundant to the first mention of Flynn, which already mentions Heck
  • Removed.
• Since "creation and premiere" starts in the 60s, it feels odd to have the next section be titled "1960s". Maybe "Late 1960s" or "Early Avengers"? Idk
  • Renamed to Late 1960s.
• "Some of Iron Man's villains were given new motivations" - not essential, but any interesting examples in the sourcing?
  • Specified "personal motivations", but the source didn't have more than that.
• Did Friedrich take over from Conway or write for him during his 4-year tenure? It's not quite clear
  • Reread the source, it looks like I had the details wrong there. Fixed.
• The two sentences about his alcoholism/Demon in a Bottle feel a bit stilted to me. I might condense and combine them, something like: "Their largest change was making Iron Man an alcoholic, an unprecedented issue for a major comic book hero, addressed in the Demon in a Bottle story arc that ran from #120 to #128."
  • Changed.

Publication history - 1980s and 21st century

• Since you're very picture light in the whole publication history section, you could maybe throw in some pictures of the more famous writers just to break it up visually? Not mandatory.
  • Added one.
• "having the character again fall into his alcoholism" - "having him relapse" maybe? It's tighter
  • Changed.
• "O'Neil eventually wrote..." do we know when? The next arc starts in 1987, but it would be nice to know when Tony retired and how long it lasted.
• "This story blended..." you have "Iron Man" twice in this sentence, you could maybe write around it with "aspects of the character" or similar phrasing but it's not a hill I'll die on
  • Changed
• "with issue #211" again year might be nice here, so we know how long they lasted before Byrne replaced them
  • I added years for each issue that didn't have context about its release date.
• "In 1990, Michelinie and Layton stopped writing for Iron Man, and the series was given to John Byrne" - it feels like the middle part is redundant to the bit about Byrne. If the series was given to Byrne, surely the others stopped writing it? I'm willing to be convinced here.
  • Reworded.
• I might swap the order of the two sentences that start "He did not have" and "During his run". To me it makes sense to say here are the arcs he did, here's the change he made, and here's where he quit
  • Yeah, switched them.
• "He did not have further interest in the series by 1992" this feels a bit clunky. "By 1992, he had lost interest in the series" maybe?
  • Changed.
• "The 2014 AXIS event led into the Superior Iron Man series by Tom Taylor, featuring Iron Man with a new reversed personality." in what sense? What caused this change? Did it last?
• "This series moved away from the developments and deviations" Is there any way you can expand on these? Right now this doesn't give the reader very much. What changes were undone? Why?
• This section (and the end of the 1990s section) feels a bit dry, mostly being "and then this guy wrote it. and then they rebooted it. and then this other guy wrote it." It's not necessarily your fault - if that's all the sources say, that's all you have. But if you have anything else you could get in here, I think it would break it up a bit.

Characterization - Fictional biography

• This section is quite tightly written, covers the main points at a good clip without getting bogged down in trivia or being too brief. Comments here are basically nitpicks, there's no major concerns.
• Your link to retroactive continuity is a bit of an easter egg; I might swap the phrase "changed retroactively" from a line or two down to up here
  • Swapped
• You've dupelinked Obadiah Stane, why not dupelink SHIELD also? Seems useful in this section
  • Linked
• You link to Armor Wars and Civil War in this section but not Demon in a Bottle or Extremis - any particular reason to link some and not others?
  • Linked
• "During this time, James Rhodes takes the Iron Man armor." this is ever so slightly ambiguous - takes as in he swipes it from Tony's estate or takes as in "takes up" the mantle
  • Clarified
• "and he fakes his death" you could probably get away with "and fakes" since I think it's clear who we're talking about
  • Changed.
• "their real son could be hidden" from?
  • Added "from an alien threat". The full answer is stupidly convoluted.
• "When several heroes' personalities are temporarily inverted" how or by whom?

Characterization - Personality

• Organization
  • I'm going to start by apologizing for the amount of commenting I'm about to drop in about this section. The general organization of the paragraphs isn't 100% working for me. Having skimmed the sources, however, I can see what you're working with and it's a lot, and a lot of it is intertwined in a way that feels difficult to separate. This may well wind up just being a situation where there's no perfectly-optimized organization. That being said.
  • I have the biggest problem with para 2. You start out with how Iron Man acts differently depending on which self he's being, then pivot into masculinity, then pivot to his negative traits without really explaining how he represents American masculinity. Then we're into his moral ambiguity and how it helps readers relate to him.
  • This is a bit of a radical change, but hear me out. I suggest splitting para 1 into the "billionaire playboy" stuff and the physical disability stuff. Then move the "acts different depending on which hat" and masculinity content from its current spot to paragraph 1, putting that all under "billionaire playboy" in a way that more clearly explains how he reflects American masculinity. Then with para 2 being now about his injury, the mention of how it threatens his masculinity calls back to what you discussed in para 1. Then you can transition from his health issues into a third paragraph about the rest of his flaws and how they make him interesting.
  • Para 3 is all about his intellect and technology - might the opening sentences of para 1 not fit better here?
  • I'm surprised that there's such minimal discussion of his alcoholism in this section. It's such a big part of his character, it feels like it would be a good place to expand on, but maybe the sourcing isn't there

• Nitpicking of prose
  • "Iron Man is a businessman and an entrepreneur who constantly seeks to innovate and improve his technology. In this capacity, he is motivated to create and develop technology both for personal benefit and for the benefit of society." You could merge these two sentences for less redundancy
  • "Stan Lee modeled Iron Man after businessman Howard Hughes, and the character shares many traits with Hughes," similarly, second clause is redundant to the first.
  • "making him misanthropic so as not to reveal" I'm not sure this is quite in line with the source. It reads to me like it's saying Tony's reliance on the armor as well as his superhero identity make him isolated from other people. I don't see where he's described as becoming hateful or distrustful of other people.
  • "While he engages in" - you have "engages" twice in this sentence
  • "Stark was a child prodigy, and he graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology at age 15." isn't this more like character bio?
  • "His form of intelligence is..." this sentence feels a bit knotted up in itself. If you move the MIT sentence, you could combine it with the first sentence and convey your meaning more clearly: "Like many Marvel superheroes, Iron Man has a genius-level intellect, although he distinguishes himself from them by focusing on the practical societal applications of the technology he develops." That does make the following sentence "Iron Man is defined by..." slightly more redundant, but you could trim or combine them too ;)
  • Tacking on to this, ref 105 refers to him as a "philosopher guardian", which is a lovely turn of phrase that neatly summarizes how he acts at his best as Iron Man, and I feel like there's a place for it in the article (perhaps following the bit about how he acts more superheroely as Iron Man)

Themes and motifs

• "By 1975, Iron Man was an opponent of the Vietnam War.[121] This created a new driving motivation to make up for his past of being too willing to promote violence,[124] and he responded by becoming a philanthropist." I'm not sure the connection here is supported by the sources. Neither Robichaud nor Henebry mentions Vietnam in their separate discussions of Tony's attempts to right his wrongs. Wright kind of does on 243, talking about Stark's vow to avenge the lives lost by warmongers like himself, but he doesn't connect it to philanthropy.
• "but it was shown as less threatening." I think you need to expand on this for it to be meaningful to the reader.
• "A second Civil War event in 2016 portrayed Iron Man as an advocate of free will against Captain Marvel's determinism." I recall Civil War I being hugely divisive against Stark which is mentioned in the article; was there a similar reaction to Civil War II against one side or another?
• No issues through Technology section
• "It must be calibrated to the user, and Iron Man has to design the armor specifically for who will be using it, whether it be himself or an ally" - suggest tightening to "Iron Man must calibrate the armor to its specific user, whether it be himself or an ally."
• "The armor's primary function was to produce" - past tense - does it not do that anymore?
• How did Extremis ultimately conclude? Has he still got bioarmor or what? I just realized the resolution is never explicitly mentioned. Maybe here isn't the best spot, but somewhere earlier might be.
• That's it for this section, which is overall pretty tight

Supporting characters

• I think you could definitely dupelink all these people in this section for reader ease
• I'm torn here. I understand the need to be clipped because you don't want to be redundant to these characters' individual articles, but some stuff feels like it needs more explanation:
  • Does Pepper still need the arc reactor?
  • Iron Man built her a set of armor in secret, and after finding it she became the superhero Rescue. - why in secret? What was he up to that she had to find it rather than him handing it over?
  • Was Rhodey WM before Stark gave him control of Stark Industries and the War Machine armor?
• "were leadership of" - not sure this works. "were leaders in" maybe?
• "Justin Hammer,[71] Shockwave, the Controller, the Mauler, and Stilt-Man." Fragment of a reordered sentence I assume
• I would probably mention that Zeke Stane is Obadiah Stane's son

Cultural impact & other media

• I'm a bit surprised that for a character with 60+ years of history, there's only 2 paragraphs of impact/legacy
• Usually good practice to mention the year of a film to give context (either in the text or in parentheses after works)
• "in the top ten in best Marvel character and best superhero lists." something in here is not right. Maybe try "in lists of best superheroes and best Marvel characters"? Bit simpler anyway
• Why did that particular Italian town erect an Iron Man statue?
• No gripes for Other media section

Okay, that's all I have for now. For the most part, the article is really well-written, and there are plenty of places I had little-to-nothing to criticize. My biggest thing is the organization of the Personality section, but as I said above, given the complexity involved, I'm open to discussion. Take your time responding. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:18, 19 April 2024 (UTC)