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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Harry S. Truman/archive4

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 16:55, 18 November 2012 [1].

Harry S. Truman edit

Harry S. Truman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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PumpkinSky (talk · contribs) and Wehwalt (talk · contribs)

We are nominating this for featured article because, while it is a former FA, its content has been substantially reworked and its technical aspects have been overhauled. It just completed a PR too. PumpkinSky talk 23:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. Repeating these comments from the peer review: - Dank (push to talk)

  • "as the nation endorsed an internationalist foreign policy along with allies in Europe and control over defeated Japan.": I'm not sure what this is saying.
Looks like Wehwahlt got that that one.PumpkinSky talk 00:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... U.N. approval for the Korean War. After initial success, the UN ...": U.N. or UN?
Made it UN since we have USA, USSR, etc. PumpkinSky talk 00:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reportedly, he passed by secretly memorizing the eye chart.": I avoid knee-jerk invocations of WP:WEASEL, but "reportedly" in a history article is just the kind of thing WEASEL is meant to address. Either a writer finds the report credible, based on available sources, or not; If so, then the sentence is stronger without "reportedly", and if not, then the incident doesn't merit mentioning, unless the story is the story ... that is, if this story itself became part of Truman's legacy, then attribute the story to the most persuasive source. - Dank (push to talk) 14:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about that. As the Truman Library seems to recognize the historicity of Truman's deceit, I've dropped the hedge. I've done the others we neglected to earlier, too.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments:
  • "; followed by one sister, Mary Jane (1889–1978).": fragment.
  • "As a young boy, Truman had three main interests: music, reading, and history, all encouraged by his mother, with whom he was very close—as president, he solicited political as well as personal advice from her.": It's a rare sentence that works best with two big nonparallel pauses, in this case the colon and the dash. Better would be: As a young boy, Truman was interested in music, reading, and history, all encouraged by his mother, with whom he was very close—as president, he solicited political as well as personal advice from her. (Some will think that sentence is too long, but I think it fits in this article.)
  • Consistency: "toward", "towards"
  • "the issue of the corruption was a major issue": WP:Checklist#repetition
  • Consistency: "re-election", "reelected"
  • "Ten Year Plan,", "the senator from Pendergast.": WP:LQ
  • "He was largely ignored by President Roosevelt, who did not take him seriously at this stage": One implies the other, I think.
  • "The waste and profiteering he saw caused him to": WP:Checklist#because. The word "caused" is out of fashion when talking about, for instance, politics; actions rarely have a single cause. "led" would probably be fine.
  • "A separate committee to conduct a formal investigation was set up under Truman, this proposal was supported by the administration rather than risk a more hostile probe by the House of Representatives.": "risk" is nonparallel. comma splice.
  • I got down to Harry_S._Truman#Vice presidency. - Dank (push to talk) 21:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks. I am traveling and will get to these as quickly as time permits.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Up to date.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:37, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. This is a fine article, but I have less time than I used to and I won't be able to finish. The second part of WT:MHC#Opposing at FAC is a little bit relevant. - Dank (push to talk) 17:24, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I read it and fair enough. Call on me for a review sometime.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Media check - mostly OK (USGOV images), some remarks and minor points to check/improve:

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wGYoU50uks
    • links to a video, so you should probably use a video parameter instead of audio, see template:external media-documentation (done, GermanJoe (talk) 12:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • If possible, the file should be uploaded to commons (disregard, if not). See documentation for further usage info.
    • wikipedia:YT gives additional guidelines for YouTube videos (esp. regarding the copyright situation, make sure the YT video has a valid copyright on its own).
  • File:Deweytruman12.jpg - if the photo is iconic as stated (i wouldn't know), FUR is OK imo. Only non-free image in article.
That's one of the most iconic photos in American history, right up there with the flag raising on Iwo Jima, and for political photos, possibly the most iconic in US history.PumpkinSky talk 09:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Concur. I will ask Connormah to look at the image questions above.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Quick update: i pinged Connormah for some feedback, but s/he may be busy in real life. It is not crucial anyway (worst case: the video could be temporarily removed pending clarification). GermanJoe (talk) 10:10, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, I overlooked that. In my opinion the little film is PD as having been published without a copyright notice, pre-1978. Regarding the images being moved to commons, I am rather thumb-fingered at that, I am afraid. Regarding the Dewey/Truman, I agree with PumpkinSky, that is famous indeed, beyond the usual.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:56, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS:IMAGE - make sure, incomplete caption phrases do not end with a period. Only correct, complete sentences should end with full stop. GermanJoe (talk) 07:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
done PumpkinSky talk 00:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • P.S. the talk page PR notification is still active fyi. Not sure what's wrong with that. GermanJoe (talk) 07:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
PR notice closed, captions checked. If there's one in particular you think should have punctuation altered, let me know, a couple of the captions were borderline.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed election poster caption and added alt text (feel free to tweak). GermanJoe (talk) 18:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the just-closed peer review: Wikipedia:Peer_review/Harry_S._Truman/archive2. Binksternet (talk) 16:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It was closed a day or so ago, but PS and I forgot to update the talk page.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Binksternet
I'll remove all but the third, which is unfamiliar enough for the reader as to justify a link even within a direct quote.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are there quotes around "hobo camp"?
Removed.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the peer review, the observations about Henry Wallace were not addressed. Wallace was quite popular but the article says he was unpopular! The reason Wallace was bumped and Truman brought into the VP position was because the VP was expected to become president very soon as FDR was seriously ill. Wallace was seen as very friendly to labor, a particularly hazardous position to hold during wartime when labor and management were supposed to work together for war production. Truman had a record of efficiency in production (the Truman Committee) and he was seen as having the necessary grit to make tough decisions. The McCullough biography delves into this area. Binksternet (talk) 16:40, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, sorry.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your fix introduced a bit of redundancy in the paragraph. Some streamlining of the reading flow is in order. Binksternet (talk) 17:10, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:37, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Truman said a lot of things, and Wikipedia is not Wikiquote—we don't host extensive quotes—but a very widely quoted Trumanism is the one which came after Germany invaded the USSR. He said jokingly to reporters, "If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don't want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Neither of them thinks anything of their pledged word." June 24, 1941, New York Times. This flippant outburst showed Truman's initial "instinctive" position on the Soviets, one that had changed into a more pragmatic view by the time he became president. At any rate the quote is very often discussed in biographies and histories. Binksternet (talk) 15:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am reluctant, because it also reflects a shift in point of view about Hitler, which was commonplace. I will consult my references.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks on that. I am sorry for not getting back to you. I did consult McCollough on it.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:29, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I am reading this article with great interest; Truman is a fascinating subject.

I'm sure I shall have more to say, but for the moment I would welcome a bit more beef in the "Recognition of Israel" subsection. For example, there is no mention of Truman's advocacy, from 1945, of the immediate admission of 100,000 Jewish Holocaust survivors into Palestine, in defiance of British policy. In 1946 he rejected the Morrison-Grady plan which would have created a 1500 square mile Jewish "province", and gave his support in principle to the Jewish Agency's demands for a viable state, well before the UN partition resolution. I'm sure this information can be cited from your sources, otherwise I can oblige.

Reading on. Brianboulton (talk) 21:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Added those topics, with two new refs. PumpkinSky talk 22:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still on this topic; reading the expanded version, I'm still unhappy:
  • "truman had always taken an interest in the history of the Middle East..." Do you really mean "always"? What is the source of this assertion? I'm not aware of his ever expressing a view on the subject before he became president.
  • "The State Department was anxious to placate the Arabs by giving them the territory". What is meant by "the terrritory"? In any event, this is an oversimplification; why would they want to "placate the Arabs"? Some reference to the basis of the State Department's position is necessary.
  • The two sentences: "This is one point, among others, of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry (or "Morrison-Grady plan"), that Truman agreed with. One of the points of that plan Truman did not agree with was the creation of a Jewish enclave of just 1,500 square miles (3,900 km2)" - are very clumsily written, and Truman's opposition to the creation of the enclave needs to be explained. Why did he oppose it?
  • Overall, I think there is too much reliance, as a source, on Truman's policy statement of October 4, 1946. This is the only source given for the first five sentences of this section, and I would prefer to see this based on the analysis of a dispassionate historian rather than on Truman himself. Brianboulton (talk) 16:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have rewritten the section based on McCullough. I consider McCullough rather lachrymose in his descriptions at time, but I suppose he's dispassionate enough to get by. If you consider the descriptions too sketchy, I can add more, but I'm worried about the overall length of the article, which you have politely not mentioned.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:45, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Jesse V.

  • I didn't get any internal server errors. It did say the Goodwill site was bad, this one, but that's a false positive as I just went to it.PumpkinSky talk 00:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The article says: 'Truman made the decision to recognize Israel over the objections of Secretary of State George Marshall, who feared it would hurt relations with the Arab states.' The second part of that sentence is not supported by the source cited: p. ix of Benson's book. On p x, Benson suggests that Marshall's opposition was on national security grounds but doesn't explain the connection. I think there is danger in summarising Marshall's position in a half sentence, and it's been done in a rather crude way here.--Mkativerata (talk) 20:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've cleared it up, expanded Marshall's position and changed the ref. The cite is from before my involvement in the article, but I'm sorry about that.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:33, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No worries -- support by the way, for whoever counts these days. I have the McCullough book and have checked a few refs and they're all good. --Mkativerata (talk) 07:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review and for spot-checking, and for the support.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:54, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This article is not ready for FAC at this time. The prose is weak and the sourcing unimpressive. Make a greater effort in researching the subject and fill in the holes before you bring it back to FAC. Kolob1x2 (talk) 21:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Could I ask that you be more specific?--Wehwalt (talk) 22:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note that Kolob1x2 is a new user, in my opinion too new for FAC review. Binksternet (talk) 14:12, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made some copyedits to this article but hope that does not disqualify me as a reviewer. Content is excellent, sources look good, appears others have OK'd the images, alt text is good. Personally, and this is just me, I'd like to see a couple minor subsections reorganized for flow and clarity, the "Tributes and Legacy" section should have the two sections flipped, his legacy first, then the "associations, sites and honors" at the end, as that is the less important section, subordinate to and flowing from Truman's legacy. I would also like to see a slightly different structure to the Post-Presidency section, perhaps with no subheadings, start with the section beginning with the paragraph "Once out of office" about his financial difficulties, then finish that section with the paragraphs on his memoirs, then discuss the library. Consider tossing the subheading in the later life section, move the 1956 trip and honorary degree to a more chronological spot (maybe with the book and library, or even into The tributes and legacy section), as the rest of that paragraph discusses his later political activity. Then, clearly keep the end of life bit as is. Or, if you wish, I can do a little rearranging to show you what I'm after here. Montanabw(talk) 20:02, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You could rearrange the article in userspace and point us to it with a link. Binksternet (talk) 20:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe I'll wait to see what Wehwalt wants to do before I go mucking around ;-) Montanabw(talk) 20:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, I made three edits, all of which can be reverted if they did not help; I swapped the two sections in tributes and legacy, I tossed the subheadings in Post-Presidency and rearranged a few things, and the third edit moves the bit on the Oxford honorary degree to the tributes section, also tweaking the bit on Masonic affiliation. If anyone thinks my changes were not helpful, I won't be hurt if I'm reverted. ;) Montanabw(talk) 02:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support all looks good to me. Montanabw(talk) 21:55, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done, no comment on source comprehensiveness.

  • Some shortened citations that include publication titles are italicized, while others are not
  • No citations to Forrestal 1951, Radosh & Radosh 2009, "Immigration into Palestine"
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check for template glitches like doubled periods
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent in what style of state abbreviate you use
I've made the change to old-fashioned. I personally prefer postal abbreviation, but have run into objections.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newspapers/journals without weblinks should include page numbers
Not always available. I've added one and will look for the others.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some publications in Online sources are missing italicization
I've added.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I've taken care of all comments down to here.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:03, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If it can be done while maintaining accuracy, I'd like not to add more book sources unless we have to, "because we are too manny".--Wehwalt (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've beefed up the sourcing on the China matter and cut the Kfar Truman which strikes me as a bit trivial and besides the Benson book only has part of what was there, so we'd need another source.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We're up to date, I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We have sufficient consensus, I think. When closing the nomination, I ask that the oppose be disregarded. This was one of the editor's first few edits, which is highly suspicious, and the oppose doesn't seem to be actionable.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about unactionable opposes. I will need some time to walk through it myself though, which may not be for another day, unless Graham beats me to it. Same goes for Jinnah, BTW. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am in no hurry, as am winding up work prior to leaving on a cruise Tuesday (I do this twice a year). Take your time. I'm just giving a quick summary of where I see things. Thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:27, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments -- Having an interest in post-war American politics, and finding myself copyediting the whole article (though lightly) I've decided to weigh in as a full-fledged reviewer on this nom and recuse myself from delegate duties. I don't anticipate it to affect promotion in relatively short order, however, nor would I wish that...

  • Not sure about the rationale behind some of the linking in the lead. The World Wars are linked, though I'd say they're so well known and so wide ranging that such simple links are superfluous, whereas National Guard, a purely American institution, is not.
    • I notice WWI and WWII are still linked but I'm not going to make a Federal case out of it... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Truman took political advice from his mother and was a page at the 1900 Democratic National Convention. Suggests his parents were active Democrats in his youth -- can/should we say that?
I've added that his father's friends, who were active in the party, got him the job.
Tks. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1940 seems a bit of an Easter Egg -- if we mean the 1940 Senate elections, why not spell it out?
  • I don't think it's obvious how the Truman Committee would've saved "thousands of lives" as opposed to merely dollars -- can we elucidate?
I think it's speculative and puffing by McCullough. I've deleted that and added material to make the political benefit to Truman a bit clearer.
Makes sense. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Communism" is capitalised under Foreign policy, but not in the lead -- pls check and be consistent throughout (I'd expect no caps myself).
  • Pls use the duplicate link checker; I spotted a few myself when copyediting but there may be more.
  • You say "Nationalist Chinese" and "Nationalists" under Worldwide defense but "nationalist Chinese" in the next section -- consistency pls.
  • Aside from the above, I'm pretty satisfied with prose, structure, referencing, detail, and supporting materials, and I note image and source spotchecks by other reviewers -- good effort all round. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's good enough for government work, I suppose, though I can see that we're being told nicely not to put away the hammer and nails just yet! I'm not familiar with the duplicate link checker, can you refer me? I'll plow through the others this morning.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:01, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, it's one of Ucucha's -- here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:23, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All done. Thanks for the review. I find I did have the script, I thought you were talking about an external tool.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:12, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine, happy to support, just one last thing -- another script tells me that "First Taiwan Strait Crisis Quemoy and Matsu Islands" is not referenced, in which case perhaps it belongs in External Links, with the Harv ref parameter removed. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done that too.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:05, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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