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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Geoff Bent/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 17 July 2023 [1].

Geoff Bent edit

Nominator(s): Harrias (he/him) • talk 07:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Geoff Bent was one of Manchester United's lesser known Busby Babes that died in the Munich air disaster in 1958. He never became a first-team regular, as the club captain, Roger Byrne played the same position. Bent only travelled to Belgrade because of a slight injury Byrne was carrying, and ultimately did not play in the match. This is a pretty short article, but as Bent only made 12 first-team appearances, I think the length is suitable for the subject. My only slight concern is that a lot of the sources tend towards hagiography. This was a guy who was 25 and hadn't neither forced his way into the Manchester United team, nor made a move elsewhere to play first-team football, and yet most of the sources talk about him as though he was the next big thing, and was just very unlucky that the current big thing played for the same team. I can only reflect the sources though, so while I have tried to temper the language and stick to the facts, or at least quoted praise, I can't balance them out, because there aren't the sources to do that. Anyway, as always, all feedback greatly appreciated. Harrias (he/him) • talk 07:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude edit

  • Wikilink "first team"? (both in lead and body)
  • Left back has a hyphen in some places but not others
  • Wikilink First Division (both in lead and body)
  • "the only entrance was from a side alley, and had no indoor toilet" => "the only entrance was from a side alley, and the house had no indoor toilet"
  • "Bent was a member of both" => "He was a member of both" (so you don't have two consecutive sentences both starting with "Bent")
  • "was awarded a medal from his local Humane Society" => "was awarded a medal by his local Humane Society"
  • Wikilink half back and left back on first use in body
  • "in the English School's Trophy" - suspect this is/was actually called the English Schools Trophy (no apostrophe)
  • "players were not allowed to sign a professional contract with a team until they had left school, so like many of his teammates, Bent also took on an apprenticeship as a joiner" - is this accurate? Surely if he took on an apprenticeship that meant he had already left school....?
    • I've subsequently noticed that the source supporting that statement is available through Google Books and found the relevant passage. I think the source has been slightly misrepresented - it says that a boy "could not sign for a club (i.e. at all) until he left school and then only as an amateur receiving no pay, so until he turned 17 and could sign professional forms entitling him to be paid a wage, he was encouraged to continue in his education or take up a trade". So they could only sign with a club when they left school (which in his case was in May 1949, when he was 16) and professional terms could only follow at 17. Therefore for the purposes of what is relevant to this part of the article, I would change what's currently there to "players were not allowed to become paid professionals until the age of 17, so like many of his teammates, Bent also took on an apprenticeship as a joiner". To summarise, he spent time with the club as a trialist (i.e. without any form of contract at all, simply while the club assessed his abilities) until he left school, then signed an amateur (unpaid) contract when he finished school in May 1949, then signed a professional contract in early 1951..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:08, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, I think I tried to pull together a few different thoughts and got myself confused. I want to have a read through them all to make sure I'm saying what I'm trying to say when I redo it. Harrias (he/him) • talk 20:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've added a variation on your suggestion. Harrias (he/him) • talk 19:55, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who he married on 27 June 1953" => "whom he married on 27 June 1953"
  • "Bent's appearances were again sporadic the following season deputising" => "Bent's appearances were again sporadic the following season, deputising"
  • First team is written both with and without a hyphen (it should definitely have a hyphen when used as an adjective, but I think not when used as a noun
    • I think I've got these correct throughout now. Harrias (he/him) • talk 11:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "United drew 3–3, ensuring they won the two-legged tie" - mention the first leg score somewhere....?
  • "Bent's funeral and interment was held" => "Bent's funeral and interment were held"
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cheers, done the easy ones, with two left for when I have better access to my sources (probably this evening) to figure out. Harrias (he/him) • talk 11:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks ChrisTheDude. Sorry for the delay, "real-life" got crazy. I think I've addressed each point now. Harrias (he/him) • talk 19:55, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Suggest adding alt text

Support by Pickersgill-Cunliffe edit

  • Not something for you to act on, but interesting that Bent's gravestone give his age as 26, not 25
    • It doesn't say he was 26, it says he was "in his 26th year" i.e. in the year leading up to his 26th birthday. You are "in your first year" between birth and the age of 1, "in your second year" between the ages of 1 and 2 (i.e. when you are actually aged 1), and so on. It's slightly obscure (possibly archaic) wording, but it is accurate -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest linking surfaceman
  • " He grew up in a typically matriarchal working-class family" I've got no idea what a "typical" matriarchal family would look like, and the sentence works fine without it
  • Considering it isn't linked, could you clarify where Jacksons Buildings is? I'm assuming Salford
  • Link Swinton
  • "Bent's mother, Clara,"
  • "he settled down with Marion" Really not a fan of "settled down", but stumped for what you could replace it with!
  • Link wing
  • Article says Byrne "wanted to play at left-back", not that he did play left-back, so the subsequent "Byrne returned to left-back" doesn't quite fit
    • Added a little bit more. I don't want to get too caught up in that drama though, other than the impact it has on Bent. Harrias (he/him) • talk 20:34, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "deputising for either Byrne or Bill Foulkes" our article for Foulkes says he played centre-half, but from this article one assumes Bent is replacing him at left-back
    • I can't find any sources that explicitly state whether Bent replaced Foulkes directly, or whether other players changed position. I guess there is a degree of terminology changing its meaning here. In the 2-3-2-3 formation of the time, the full-backs were close to what we now think of as centre-backs. Whereas what we now call a left-back is more similar to a left half-back of the time. Harrias (he/him) • talk 20:34, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest expanding out the "the following season" link to instead read "the 1955–56 season" to remove confusion in moving from October to April without mentioning a change of year
  • "Modern commentators suggest" such as?
    • Honestly, I know that MOS:WEASEL suggests avoiding this sort of phrasing, but almost every modern source that talks about him in any depth includes this. I've cited it to two sources, but it could be many more. Providing inline attribution would seem oddly specific, and give a different impression. Harrias (he/him) • talk 20:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Busby's refusal to sell him to a rival" was led to understand it was a more general refusal to sell him at all, rather than sell him to a rival
  • "returned to action for the reserve team" does this mean he had continued to play for the reserves since 1951?
  • Link Belgrade
  • "However, as the aircraft approached"
    • I know some people have a grudge against "however", but I honestly think it reads better with it. Harrias (he/him) • talk 20:34, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You never actually say what date the disaster/Bent's death is on
  • "those others" > "the others"
That's all I've got for now. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 08:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: I think I've replied to each point above, other than the "settled down" one, on which I similarly can't immediately think of anything better, but will continue to think on. Harrias (he/him) • talk 20:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've been a bit busy over the past couple of weeks, but I should be back around with a bit more availability now, so should get to these soon. Harrias (he/him) • talk 07:55, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Harrias. Have you dealt with all of those? If so, could you ping the reviewer? Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:21, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I did ping @Pickersgill-Cunliffe: above, but I can do it again. Harrias (he/him) • talk 19:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SC edit

Early life
  • "his local Humane Society": Pipe a link to Royal Humane Society (unless it was a different organisation, obvs)
Manchester United
  • "signed a professional contract with the team": "with the club" would be more accurate

Just those two comments from me; nice piece of work. - SchroCat (talk) 11:15, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers SchroCat. Harrias (he/him) • talk 19:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz edit

Hi Harrias, saw this on my watchlist, can't find much to nitpick...

  • small house in Jacksons Buildings - ref 38 Manchester Evening News, 10 February 1958 includes an apostrophe ie Jackson's but Roberts doesn't?
    • There is little consistency on this, but the local sources tend to have an apostrophe, so I've added it. Harrias (he/him) • talk 14:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, in the days leading up to the trip, Byrne complained of an injury niggle, and so Busby called up Bent for the trip - this sounds like Bent went in Byrne's stead. Perhaps a tweak like 'called up Bent for the trip in case he was needed' or 'in case Byrne could not play' or similar?
    • Good idea, changed to your second suggestion. Harrias (he/him) • talk 14:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "St John's Junior School" and "St Johns churchyard" in caption but "St. John's Church in Pendlebury" has dot?
    • Removed the dot, nice spot. Harrias (he/him) • talk 14:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sad story well told. JennyOz (talk) 15:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks JennyOz, all resolved. Harrias (he/him) • talk 14:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Harrias. Very happy to s'port. JennyOz (talk) 13:48, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass edit

The sources used all appear to be reliable and high quality. The sources referred to support the text cited, insofar as I have checked them. I found no unattributed close paraphrasing. Everything that I would expect to be cited, is. The formatting is acceptable and consistent. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:02, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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