Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/CSI effect/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Laser brain 14:54, 7 February 2011 [1].

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CSI effect

CSI effect (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/CSI effect/archive1
• Featured article candidates/CSI effect/archive2

• Featured article review/CSI effect/archive1

Nominator(s): Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

This subject is completely outside of my normal comfort zone, and the unusual merger of several topics (law, sociology, media) left me with no idea what article I could use as a model. Still, I feel I've done a decent job explaining the subject and summarizing the available literature. I look forward to your comments! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Interesting article (I hadn't heard of it before). Initial thoughts (I haven't read this thoroughly yet):

• The lead need some work to tidy up exactly what the CSI Effect really refers to - at the moment it says one thing in the first paragraph, and then the next paragraph seems to correct itself to expand the meaning - which comes across as a bit jarring. I'd be tempted to start with "the CSI effect refers to the notion that crime shows affect the public's perception of forensic science" and then say something like "It is normally used in relation to increased expectation of forensic science among jurors..." (although with better phrasing than that).

  I've attempted to rearrange the content in the lead. Better? Worse? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:25, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

• I definitely think it makes more sense when explained that way round. Prose could probably be tightened but I'll have another look later on. Trebor (talk) 12:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

• The image doesn't add anything IMO, this could be one of the rare articles where images are not appropriate. (If any of the studies have nice graphs/charts then that might be good, although I don't know about copyright etc.)

  I must admit that the only reason I added the image was a feeble attempt to satisfy criterion 3, but how exactly would one illustrate a sociological effect such as this...? I'll leave it in for now (because science is cool), but if someone else wants to remove, that's fine too. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:45, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• The "see also" section is also of dubious value - I'm not sure any of the links are necessary but don't want to remove it unilaterally.

  It's quite unnecessary. I've gone ahead and removed it. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:45, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Some of the refs seem to be missing accessdates.

  I was under the impression that journals do not require accessdates, but I've added them anyway. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:45, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• You were correct, neither journals nor Google books links require access dates. Links to Jstor or other paywall/subscription sites should have a (subscription required) template or similar to warn the reader. Sasata (talk) 18:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
• Sorry, yes, I was only referring to a couple of newspaper articles which seemed to be lacking them (or at least I thought I saw a couple). Trebor (talk) 21:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Trebor (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I've gone through and made some minor tweaks, and am now reasonably happy with the prose. The final section on forensic science seems a little "bitty" at the moment - switching quite quickly between several different ideas. Could it be expanded a little? I'm pretty happy with the article, although I still need to check the sourcing (and don't know enough about the topic to comment on comprehensiveness). I'm fairly indifferent towards the image at the moment (although would lean towards removing it) so will let other people decide. Trebor (talk) 14:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I spot checked a few of the sources and found no real problems. Source 7 is a Wall Street Journal article but the link goes to [2], a different site which reproduces the article. Do we have a policy on whether we should do that or just reference the article without a link? I'm sure it must have come up before. Apart from my minor quibbles, I'm happy to Support. Trebor (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the policy on mirror sources is. Regarding the "bitty" forensic science section, I've rearranged the material and added a couple of sentences to try to make it more cohesive. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:59, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Sources comments: The sources all look reliable and are properly cited. Other points:-

• Ref 1: you should give the site's publisher, Turner Broadcasting System Inc.
• Ref 6: This article is available through JSTOR and needs to be marked (subscription required)
• Ref 7: Another case of (subscription required), this time via Heinonline
• In the interests of verification, long on-line articles with full pagination should provide a page number rather than the entire page range (as you have done with ref 10). This applies to 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16.

  Publisher and subscriptions added. I made some of the page numbers more specific, but unfortunately I won't have access to the subscription sources again until January. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 04:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Brianboulton (talk) 23:50, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

• No problem with the subscription sources - put the page refs in when you can. Thanks, Brianboulton (talk) 09:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. I remember having heard about this effect before, and it amazes me how people can be so naive and believe in such ridiculous portrayal of criminalistic work as shown in those TV series. Anyway, I found the article a refreshing read, not too bloated but with good overall information. I wonder if two or three examples of unrealistic portrayal in those series should be cited (this is not too important, though). Regarding the effect in the U.S. juridical system, more recently introduced precautionary measures such as negative evidence witnesses should be mentioned. Potential jury members are also sometimes asked for their TV preferences to sort out affectionate CSI lovers. Regarding reliance on forensics, maybe one of the countless examples of failures or false evidences could be given (see for example [3]). Nageh (talk) 13:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the great feedback! I've added a paragraph to Background to discuss the unrealistic portrayals. I also expanded a paragraph in Jurors to discuss methods that prosecutors use to fight the effect. Happy clams? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Background section, second paragraph, second sentence. You may want to rewrite this slightly as "Real murder cases most often involve a perpetrator and a victim who are poor and from minority groups" ([4]). Next sentence, I'd like to see a bit emphasized that DNA data is often unobtainable, like "In real crime labs, DNA and fingerprint data are often unobtainable, and it can take several weeks to process them, whereas television crime labs get results instantaneously." This is criticized fairly often by forensics (e.g., [5]). The latter reference also points out that too much trust is placed in DNA evidence; this could be mentioned in the Jurors section. Nageh (talk) 14:57, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I chose to rewrite the demographics sentence by simply removing "most" from "most often". I think this is the simplest solution. Your rewrite for the unobtainable DNA was spot on, so I've used that. I've also added a snippet to the first paragraph of Jurors about overconfidence in DNA. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:07, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

This covers my objections, thanks! I will vote once you are through Sasata's list. :) Nageh (talk) 21:55, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Dab/EL check - 1 dab (Washtenaw County), no dead external links. --PresN 06:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for the heads-up. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 07:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't think File:Punuk.Alaska.skulls.jpg is an appropriate image to illustrate Forensic science. Fasach Nua (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

That image is part of the {{Forensic science}} navbox, not something that I chose specifically for this article. I would not be opposed to that image being replaced, but I think it would be more appropriate to discuss such a change at Template talk:Forensic science rather than at this FAC. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

An editorial decision was made to include this template in this article, and the entire content of the article is subject to this review. The primary role of FAC is to make assessments, not changes Fasach Nua (talk) 18:58, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

In that case, how would you suggest that we deal with this problem? I believe the navbox is helpful, so I would be opposed to removing it altogether. I also believe that neither this FAC nor the article's talk page would be an appropriate venue for discussing a change in the navbox image. It seems to me that the only option would be to discuss the matter on the template talk page. We could try changing the image ourselves, though I suspect doing so would result in an immediate revert, which would inevitably lead to a discussion on the talk page anyway. Your thoughts? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 19:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your situation and the loss of the links in the template would be undesirable, however the the responsibility of editors is to edit the article and the responsibility of the reviewers is to review them, and I have made my review. In the past issues like this have been brought to wikiproject talk pages were they have been resolved, I would suggest Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine, may be a useful port of call, and it is regrettable that there is no Forensics wikiproject. Fasach Nua (talk) 14:42, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

What inappropriate about the image? It's been there since the navbox was created 5 years ago, is transcluded onto 43 pages, and yet nobody else seems to have mentioned a problem with it (from checking the template talk). Trebor (talk) 19:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it has anything to do with forensic science, it is a couple of human skulls sitting on the beach unanalysed for forensic information. On a personal point I don't thing it gives much dignity to the individuals who are the subject of the image, I wouldn't be happy if my eventual corpse was put up as a decoration, whether on a Christmas tree or on a Wikipedia. You have mentioned transclusion of the template in 43 page without problem, a useful metric may be to state how many of these articles have met the minimum threshold of acceptability rather than using the template talk page. Fasach Nua (talk) 14:42, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

In all of our fussing and fretting, it seems none of us noticed that the {{forensic science}} navbox has a built-in feature to specify an image rather than using the default. Fancy that! I've swapped out the skulls for a fingerprint. Do you like that better? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:32, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

That addresses my concerns, I would assume that the image option was intended to reflect the subject of each of the articles, if you wanted to, you could display a cropped version of File:WP_CSI_image.svg as this would fall below the Threshold of originality and thus be usable on wikipedia Fasach Nua (talk) 20:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

FA Criterion 3 met Fasach Nua (talk) 16:47, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Sorry Cryptic C62, but I did a lit search and the article does not meet the WP:WIAFA standards 1b (comprehensive) and 1c (well-researched). Check out the list of available sources below that weren't used. Of course, I'm not claiming that they should all be used as sources, I haven't read them and some may not even apply... but it seems not enough effort has yet been put into surveying the literature. Sasata (talk) 18:44, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm striking my oppose, as now I think the article fulfills 1b and 1c. I plan to review the other criteria in the next day or two. Have moved the article list to the archive talk page. Sasata (talk) 02:54, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for your diligence! I will make an effort to investigate each of the sources you've mentioned and either incorporate them into the article or give my thoughts as to why they are not needed. I suspect that some of them will be subscription-only, and I won't have access to my handy-dandy free pass until next week. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:56, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Send me a list of the ones you can't get and I'll see if I have access. Sasata (talk) 18:59, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Very cool of you, Sasata, to provide this list, particularly finding a source about a non-American aspect. --Kleopatra (talk) 06:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments I enjoyed the article, and thought it was well-written. Here's some suggestions: Sasata (talk) 17:46, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• possible relevant links for the lead: link criminal justice, juror, prosecuting attorney, acquit, forensic evidence, jury trial

• Linked.

• link crime lab

• Linked.

• "whereas television crime labs get results instantaneously." they don't really get results that fast, nor is it implied that they do on the shows (that I've seen); perhaps put quotes around "instantaneously" to show that this is someone else's (exaggerated) word choice, or just reword it yourself

• Reworded to "very quickly".

• "The most publicized example of this came when actor Robert Blake" I'd change this to "A highly publicized", as the sources don't indicative the superlative "the most"

• Reworded to "one highly-publicized"

• link expert witness

• Linked.

• "American legal professionals believed they had had decisions affected by forensic television programs." specify courtroom decisions, or perhaps pipe link to judgment (law)

• Piped link.

• "A 2008 survey" by who?

• Added name.

• "a jury member complained because the prosecution had not dusted the lawn for fingerprints"

• Lol!

• I lol'd too. People r dum.

• link anecdotal evidence

  Linked.

• "A 2009 study of conviction statistics in eight states" U.S. states, I assume?

• You are correct. I wasn't sure how to phrase this, as "eight of the fifty United States" is awkward and "eight U.S. states" is redundant". Any suggestions?

• Hm, I would have written U.S states without even noticing the redundancy (mentally, I read the letters, not "United States")... no biggie, maybe someone else will have a suggestion. Sasata (talk) 06:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

• "here has been a decrease in acquittals in the years since the debut of the CSI series." Can we qualify this "decrease"? Is it an absolute or percentage decrease?

• Percentage decrease; clarified.

• "As of August 2010, no empirical evidence has demonstrated a correlation between CSI viewership and acquittal rates." This is a pretty broad and sweeping statement, perhaps it should be attributed directly in the text?

• I'm not sure what you're asking for. The reference gives the page number with which the reader can verify the claim.

• Ok. Sasata (talk) 06:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

• "Rape victims have reported that they were forced to shower or clean themselves with bleach after the assault." Clarify they were "forced by their assailants"

• Clarified.

• National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers -> link

• Linked.

• "generally don't take precautions" avoid contractions in quality prose

• I usually avoid them, I do not know know why I phailed so hard with this article.

• link undergraduate degree, Master's degree

• Linked.

• Thanks, mate! I incorporated almost all of them, though there are a couple that require further input. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Support: I'm happy with the article now, but I suggest the lead be given a once-over: it seems to me that paragraphs 3 & 4 discuss the same material and could be combined; and the final sentence should have "in the United States" removed. Also, it's a bit awkward to have a single sentence paragraph in the lead... could it be expanded a bit or integrated elsewhere? Sasata (talk) 15:08, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

  I wasn't happy with the new layout of the lead, so I went back to an older version and expanded it. What do you think? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Provisional Support on prose, MoS, and reference formatting. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)Comments: A nice article, though one I don't feel able to comment extensively on. Some comments: "%" should generally be written in words; don't use contractions; link terms like DNA and West Virginia U on first occurrence; "attempts to conceal evidence ends up generating more evidence" and a couple other minor grammar issues; watch for double periods caused by reference templates; be consistent in including or not including retrieval dates for online versions of journal articles; "U.S. News & World Report" should be italicized in references; refs 11 and 12 should have similar formatting, as the original publication is the same (and should have the same name); missing volume number for ref 23; use last name first for ref 24; use a consistent format for refs with multiple authors. Also, I'm not sure that this article really fits in the CSI franchise template; I would suggest the removal of this template from the article and the removal of the link to it from the template, but I'll leave that to your discretion. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a bundle for the detailed feedback! I probably won't have time to incorporate your suggestions until Saturday, but rest assured that they will be addressed. You're also welcome to make changes as you see fit. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 15:03, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I have attempted to address all of your concerns, though there are two points that need some clarification. Some references have been added and moved around since you left this note, so it is no longer clear what you were referring to with "refs 11 and 12". Regarding the formatting for multiple authors, my system is this: Two authors are separated by "and", three or more authors are separated by semicolons. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:39, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Currently refs 14 and 15 - the two Scientific American articles. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Done, thanks. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments have mostly been addressed, just a few still unstruck. Also, retrieval date for ref 14 (Mirsky)? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Retrieval date added, percentages spelled out, double period fixed. Is there anywhere in particular that you found grammar issues? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

General wordiness and awkward phrasings in the lead; "data are" (while historically correct, recent grammatical publications tend to treat "data" as a mass noun rather than a plural in terms of verb agreement); "a sense of justice and closure which are not attained" ("sense" and "are" do not agree as written). These are quick examples - there are no major prose problems, but several minor ones. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:49, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't happy with the new layout of the lead, so I went back to an older version and expanded it. What do you think? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment. I'm not happy now with the article mentioning impact in Germany but not considering other European countries – this makes the topic look insufficiently researched. Please try generalizing to "...proliferated among youths in Europe", and add examples for UK and probably France and one more country. Nageh (talk) 21:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe it would be original research to automatically assume the effect is prominent throughout Europe simply based on one German source. That being said, I would be happy to try to find sources which mention other European nations (assuming such sources exist). --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I was not suggesting you to carry out original research but to do additional research. ;) Nageh (talk) 00:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

It turns out it's not just Europe. I added Britain and Australia. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

This list is likely not to be complete. I therefore suggesting wording as "...has also proliferated among youths in other [Western] countries, such as Australia, the UK, and Germany." P.S. I don't think Britain is a proper term for the UK. Nageh (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

To back up my statement, here is a source (in French), which states that students of criminology are rising in the USA, the UK, and in Continental Europe as a result of the CSI effect (l´effet CSI), and cites student numbers for a university in Lausanne (Switzerland) "exploding" since 2001: [6], paragraph 80. Nageh (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I have rephrased the statement in question to avoid implying that the list is complete, and I've changed "Britain" (which is colloquial) to United Kingdom (which is proper). Excellent work finding that source about Europe! Unfortunately, I have no knowledge of the French language, so I would prefer not to add it into the article myself. Still, I think it would be a great addition, so if you (or anyone else) are confident that you're interpreting it correctly, I'd love to see it included. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Done. Please check to make sure everything is fine. Btw, above reference seems to be an excellent fit since the University of Lausanne hosted the world's first school of forensic science. Nageh (talk) 14:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Cool, thanks mate! I tweaked the wording and the ref a little bit. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Much better! Nageh (talk) 17:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Support: As a fan of CSI: Las Vegas, I was intrigued to find this article, which is an interesting and enjoyable reading experience. The language is clear and it seems to me the article has focused and explained quite clearly on its intent (real-world effect of the show). Jappalang (talk) 00:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Support. Finally, here comes my vote. I'm happy with the current state of the article, as well as the lead as it stands. Good work! Nageh (talk) 17:58, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Notes

• "The CSI effect (sometimes CSI syndrome[1] or CSI infection[2]) refers to ... "

• But I see no redirect from CSI infection.

• Kwah? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:12, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• "By 2005, six of the top ten most popular television shows were crime dramas, and in November 2007, CSI: Crime Scene Investigation reached the number one ranking."

• Presumably, top ten in the United States? Never mentioned ...

• Yes, United States. Added. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 14:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• " ... resulting in two spin-offs: CSI: Miami, which launched in 2003, and CSI: NY in 2004."

• missing comma ??

• Added. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 14:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• "By 2005, six of the top ten most popular television shows were crime dramas, and in November 2007, CSI: Crime Scene Investigation reached the number one ranking."

• Number one ranking under what scheme? I can't find that mentioned anywhere in the cited source-- related to the source having 13 pages?

• Quote from the second page/chapter "The Effect": "By 2005, according to the Nielsen ratings, six of the ten most popular shows on television were crime dramas, and that trend continues to hold. In November 2007, C.S.I. was the number one show for several weeks running" --Cryptic C62 · Talk 14:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• In cases like this, I go to the printed version of the source, expecting it to include all pages-- it seems that in this case it doesn't, and there's no way to view the entire document, so you really should be citing individual pages (rather than always the first page) so readers can find the info. Also, you need to add Nielsen and link it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:35, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• Nielsen added and linked. Individual chapters cited throughout using {{rp}}. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 15:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

• "By 2005, some prosecutors had begun altering their trial preparations and procedures in an attempt to counter the CSI effect.[21][22] In particular, prosecutors have begun asking questions about forensic television viewership ... "

• Had begun, have begun.

• The latter changed to from "have begun asking" to "are now asking". --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I stopped there, but also see WP:OVERLINKing of common English words and terms, and country names.

Don't forget to review the overlinking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Removed links from Australia, United Kingdom, Germany, bleach, and psychological. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• Wiki is glitching something awful tonight, slow going, please ping me when you've gotten through these issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Kleopatra's comments

Difficult to edit from huge page on my device. --Kleopatra (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose for poorly organized prose. This article is all over the place. You've made it international per the request of a reviewer above, but the international journals I read (biased as personal) indicate the impact is much greater in Germany than the rest of Europe, so I would like to see this developed per the actual impact, rather than just add information about international interest from various sources. Weighted? The article does not flow. I don't read as many FAs as I used to, but I like them to flow. Don't make me work to get my information: that's your job. This article jumps all over the place, contains nice paragraphs of information that could be bullet points, but aren't purposefully related in an organized manner to the topic through the broad body of research readily availably. On the other hand, I think this is working bringing up to FA status, as I think it would get a lot of hits, and I think it would be a fun read for many readers of FAs and wikipedia in general. I would like to see TFA throw candy to the audience every once in a while. But this has to be better organized and researched at a more purposeful level. --Kleopatra (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

As a detail-oriented person, the concept of "flow" has little meaning to me. The Trials section is organized chronologically. The other sections, which haven't had enough serious research done to justify a chronological explanation, are broken down into paragraphs with distinct subtopics. This organization seems perfectly logical to me. What can be done to make it flow better? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:12, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

If you make the reader jump back and forth from the very specific to the general from the positive aspects of the CSI effect to the negative aspects of the CSI effect and back to the positive all in 3 sentences you interfere with comprehension. This is part of detail orientation, presenting your data in a logical manner: you start with the general, move into specifics, you structure your presentation in a way that doesn't continually jar the reader back and forth. If you think it is logical to just put out fact after fact in any manner, there is no organization, and there winds up being no flow; you might as well just put the article in randomly organized bullet lists; but that's not what it is: it's an article, meant to be read by a general and diverse audience of encyclopedia readers. I can't say much more on this, because I seem to have reached a roadblock that does not allow for any communication about organization. Detailed information put out without order is not organization, and it interferes with the level of detail by juxtaposing conflicting details making comprehension and reading difficult. --Kleopatra (talk) 18:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you could give a sample of how you would want some of the content to be rewritten? If you rewrote, for example, the Crimes section here or in the actual article, that would give me a much better idea of what kind of changes you're looking for. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I did give a sample.[7] --Kleopatra (talk) 20:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say this, mate, but if that unsubstantial shuffling of content is what you mean by improving the article's flow, then I don't intend to do anything to address your concern. Quite frankly, your concerns don't make any sense to me, nor have your edits demonstrated any improvements that I can readily detect. I see no point in blindly moving content around in the hopes of pleasing one editor when numerous other have already given positive feedback for the article's organization and clarity. Nevertheless, I appreciate the time you've put into this review, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavors. Cheers! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not blind. It's organized prose, and FAs require excellent prose. And this article does not have it, because the information is not laid out with any design that well-written prose is organized in a manner that reflects its actual content. --Kleopatra (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment I think the article needs and could be better developed than it is. The CSI effect has been studied extensively since reports of it first started appearing in the press. There are a lot of examples that can be included in the article. I think the article could be organized better, within sections. I've expanded the lead section. I think in featured articles that the lead section is not usually sourced extensively, but the citations are included with the expansion? I am also not sure how to do the references; am I missing something? I have a small library of articles and a couple of books on this topic, and I think it's interesting. I would like to add some sources and examples, and expand the text in some areas. --Kleopatra (talk) 06:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

You're certainly welcome to expand and adjust as you see fit. The current layout is one that I decided on more or less by myself, so it doesn't really reflect any sort of consensus. Regarding references, there are two things you could add to make them better: page numbers and URLs for Google Books entries. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 15:03, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Kleopatra, for your concerns to be actionable, you need to provide some specifics about the issues you see: what could be better developed, what examples are missing (and please provide reliable sources for those), what is a sample organizational problem, and see WP:LEAD regarding citations in the lead. Unless you give nominators specific input about what needs improvement, they can't action your request. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

"There are several other manifestations of the CSI effect. The number and popularity of forensic science programs at the university level have greatly increased around the world, though some new programs have been criticized for inadequately preparing their students for real forensic work. It is possible that forensic science shows teach criminals how to conceal evidence of their crimes, thereby making it more difficult for investigators to solve cases. The increased public awareness of forensic science has stimulated new interest in solving cold cases, though it has also created significantly larger workloads for crime laboratories."

Is the number of university students taking classes in forensic sciences the greatest secondary Impact? This paragraph is a jumble, a somewhat positive impact, a clearly negative one, then another broader positive one.

"There are several other manifestations of the CSI effect. Some research indicates that increased public awareness of forensic sciences has stimulated new interest in solving cold cases, though it has also created significantly larger workloads for crime laboratories. The increased workload may be reduced by an influx of new forensic scientists being trained at suddenly popular forensic science programs at the university level. Although these programs have greatly increased around the world, some new programs have been criticized for inadequately preparing their students for the often repetitive laboratory work that is common in real forensic work. In addition to the increased awareness of criminal cases among the general public, it is possible that the forensic science shown on television shows educates criminals in means for concealing evidence of their crimes, thereby making it more difficult for investigators to solve cases."

This moves from a very general, ties together two things that are tied together; increased workload, but also far more interested applicants for what really are tedious lab jobs; in addition this leads naturally to the other side, that criminals also use it to their advantage. It's more structured, not just a list. --Kleopatra (talk) 05:30, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

While I agree that there should logically be a connection between the influx of qualified applicants and the overall workload, the problem is that such a connection is not (as far as I can tell) discussed in the sources. For us to make such a connection ourselves would be WP:Synthesis. Also, it does make a certain amount of sense that more qualified applicants does not necessarily reduce the workload. Crime laboratories presumably make their hiring decisions based on their available budget which, sadly, does not increase with respect to the lab's workload. If however, you have any other ideas for how to tie the paragraph together, I'd be happy to hear them. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

• Background: The background opens with a paragraph about the show becoming popular, then gives an alphabetical list of other such shows. The list should be in order of most popular, as the article is about popular TV shows. Alphabetical is a fallback for lack of insight into the list. Please reorder by popularity or mentions in the references.

The problem with ordering by popularity is that, as far as the Nielsen ratings are concerned, viewership data and ratings fluctuate from week to week, meaning that the list would become outdated very quickly. There are definitely some shows that are mentioned in the literature more frequently than others, but for us to make an ordered list would be both synthesis and impractical: we would have to survey all of the publications about the CSI effect to determine the correct order of the list (as if it were even possible to definitively find all of the publications about a particular topic). In a perfect world, I think the best order would be how strong of a CSI effect each show exerts on its viewers, but this is something we'll be able to know. In short, you are right that alphabetical order is a fallback. However, I have fallen back on it because the other options are largely impossible. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

• Then moves from this introduction to a second paragraph about unrealistic aspects of the show. How about developing the impact first, rather than just listing it, then moving on to what wrongs with it, namely the unrealistic aspect. Without developing the impact of the shows in the background section as the second paragraph, you leave this paragraph, and thus the whole section, hanging nowhere. --Kleopatra (talk) 05:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I know what you're suggesting here. Would you be so kind as to clarify what you mean by "impact"? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Please use the background section to give the reader some background about what the CSI effect is, how it came about, how it earned this topical article. You list the timeline, then other shows in the first paragraph of this section, then move on to what is criticized as unrealistic about the shows. Yet, the introduction of the article is that the CSI effect is about the public perception of forensic science, cold case, university programs in forensic science and criminal's hiding crimes with the help of the crime shows. Nothing about this second paragraph that jumps up about the unrealistic aspects of the show.

There's a lot of information missing about what the criticism of unrealistic aspects of the show has to do with the CSI effect. I train with forensic scientists, so this is the funnest part of the shows for all of us, and the press has had some fun with this, also, but, how is this unrealism tied in to the CSI effect? Please don't make me jump down in the article to find out. --Kleopatra (talk) 17:21, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The "impact", as you've described it here, is covered in the Manifestations section. The purpose of the Background section is to familiarize the reader with the information that is relevant to all of the different manifestations. Incorporating your suggestions would detract from this purpose and lead to redundancies in the article. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:12, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Your background gives the timing of the show then the criticism. Sorry, but there is more to the background than criticism of the show. Even your introduction contradicts your background and doesn't mention criticism of the unrealistic aspects of the show. If the entire background to the CSI effect is that the show presents forensic sciences unrealistically, the focus of the lead section should be on this, or it should at least mention it. --Kleopatra (talk) 18:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The lead already does mention it in the very first sentence: "The CSI effect refers to several ways in which the exaggerated portrayal of forensic science on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation..." --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Exaggerated and unrealistic do not mean the same thing. An exaggerated portrayal is, by definition of the word "exaggerated," based in reality. Unrealistic refers to something not based in reality. These are not the same. And, is all background, and are all articles about the CSI effect deal with it negatively, so the background should include only criticism? --Kleopatra (talk) 20:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The Background section should cover the cause, the Manifestations section the (CSI) effects. In this regard, the Background section should discuss what led to the notion of the CSI effect, and that is the unrealistic/exaggerated portrayal of forensic science. Nageh (talk) 22:27, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

• How is the picture relevant? What is it a DNA profile of? Not human. So, how does it tie into the article? Are FBI images copyright free? They have some pictures we might could use in the article, but I would like to see the picture removed if it can't be tied better to the subject matter. --Kleopatra (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

In all honesty, I just thought the picture looked cool. I promised Trebor that I would remove it if anyone else was unhappy with it, so now it's gone. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. I do sympathize somewhat with Kleopatra's assessment that the Background section rather abruptly jumps from a listing of crime shows associated with the CSI effect in its first paragraph to criticism of the shows in the second and third paragraphs, forcing a reader who has never seen any of these shows to make its own conclusions about their contents. It would indeed be helpful if a second paragraph were introduced that outlined the common plot structure of these series, highlighting notable aspects that are criticized later on (investigators do crime scene investigation, labs, and even arrests, are elegantly clothed, cases are supposed to be from real life, labs have high-tech equipment, cases are nearly always solved with certainty, criminals are usually white, etc.). Then, the third paragraph may go on with "There are several aspects of these shows that have been criticized as being unrealistic..." Nageh (talk) 22:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Hm, we shouldn't anticipate anything, either. Maybe we can simply insert a few words or lines after the first sentence of the first paragraph. Like, The series follows a team of criminalists as they solve cases of murder using physical evidence. The course of events is reconstructed successively using scientific skills and equipment that are capable of finding valuable clues from the most seemingly unlikely sources. (from CSI:_Crime_Scene_Investigation) Nageh (talk) 23:35, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Added. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

• Further comment: Even though the CSI effect is shortly described in the lead section, in the Background section it is only described in the third paragraph. Using the term in the first paragraph is unfortunate. You should rather say something like "The series inspired a number of similar crime shows, including American Justice, etc." Nageh (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

• CSI was undoubtedly the spark the ignited the effect, but to claim that CSI inspired all of those shows would be misleading, as some of them have been around since before CSI debuted. If you think this list is poorly placed, perhaps we could try moving it to the fourth paragraph, which also discusses other sources of the CSI effect. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

No, the place is fine since you are referring to the poor portrayal of forensic work in these shows in the next paragraph. Well, I don't have a strong opinion on this so I'll leave it as is unless someone else comments. Nageh (talk) 15:38, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposal: First paragraph: "The show quickly became popular, resulting in two spin-offs: CSI: Miami, which launched in 2003, and CSI: NY, in 2004. Its success provoked a number of similar television shows, and by 2005, based on the Nielsen ratings, six of the top ten most popular television shows in the United States were crime dramas. In November 2007, CSI: Crime Scene Investigation reached the number one ranking."

Beginning of second paragraph: "Several aspects of popular crime shows have been criticized...".

End of third paragraph: "In addition to the CSI series, the CSI effect has been associated with crime shows like American Justice, Bones, Cold Case, Cold Case Files, Criminal Minds, Crossing Jordan, Forensic Files, NCIS, Numb3rs, The Secrets of Forensic Science, and Without a Trace.[4][1]:Ch. 2"

Less intrusive change: "The show quickly became popular, resulting in two spin-offs: CSI: Miami, which launched in 2003, and CSI: NY, in 2004. Its success inspired many similar shows,^[ref] and by 2008, the number of crime series that have been associated with the CSI effect included..."

If you agree with the basic structure, improve wording as you see fit.

[ref]: [8]

Nageh (talk) 23:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, mate! I've incorporated that source into the first paragraph of Background. What do you think? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:46, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Better, but still missing the flow. :) The two parts of the sentence still require a semantic connection. For example: "The success of this franchise resulted in the production of many similar shows; in turn, the CSI effect has also been associated with other crime shows including American Justice, ...". Nageh (talk) 23:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I like this wording! I have incorporated it verbatim. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Awesome! Nageh (talk) 09:36, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

• Concerned about this one. It's been here for over a month, and I still see issues.
  • Lots of clunkiness in the writing and plain grammatical problems. You have a propensity for the wordiness illustrated in that first link, and it makes the prose exhausting to get through.
  • Another example: "there has been a decrease in the acquittal rate in the years since the debut of the CSI series" Much simpler: "the acquittal rate has decreased in the years since the debut of the CSI series". This problem occurs throughout.

    It is true that I have a propensity for wordiness. It is also true, as I'm sure you know, to accurately detect wordiness in one's own writing. Nonetheless, I have attempted to simplify the phrasing as much as I could. Are there any other problematic phrases? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:00, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

  • On randomly checking your sources, I find that "By 2006, the CSI effect had become widely accepted as reality despite the fact that there had not yet been any empirical research to validate or disprove it" is not supported by the source given, at least on the pages you cite. If anything, the source indicates that the CSI effect is widely disputed, not widely accepted. --Andy Walsh (talk) 02:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

    I had intended to imply that the effect was widely accepted among legal professionals, though not universally accepted, as there are clearly researchers who would disagree. I have reworded accordingly. Thanks for the feedback! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:00, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

• On the oppose side. This nomination has been here for a long time, which suggests it was premature. There are good things about this article, but a spot-check in the middle reveals prose issues of the clunky type mentioned by a reviewer above:

1. "the effect that is most commonly reported is that jurors are"

   Done --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

2. "One highly-publicized example of this came when actor Robert Blake, on trial for murder, was"—see MoS; hyphens. An example came?

   Hyphen removed. "Came" -> "was". Does that help? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

3. "By 2005, some prosecutors had begun altering their trial preparations and procedures in an attempt to counter the CSI effect.[22][23] In particular, some prosecutors are now asking questions about forensic television viewership during voir dire to target biased jurors, using opening statements and closing arguments to minimize the possible impact of the CSI effect, and instructing jurors to adhere to the court's standards of evidence rather than those viewed on television.[2]"—A specific time in the past is given; "in particular" indicates the subsequent statement is a subset of the previous one, but it is tagged "now", contrary to the "since 2005". Possibly use "have been" or "have begun to". The second sentence is too long and winding; consider a semicolon plus "this has involved ...".

   Implemented the semicolon. SandyGeorgia didn't like "have begun" so I changed it to "are now". You don't like "are now" and suggest changing it to "have begun". I prefer "have begun", but I don't want to keep switching back and forth to try to please both of you, unless the two of you happen to be my divorced parents, in which case I'm totally used to it by now. :P Seriously though, what is the best course of action? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

   "have begun" only if the onset has been very gradual and is still going on as an initial onset, with a steep curve I guess; maybe that's what Sandy was uneasy about; would it work if you keep the current wording minus "now"? Tony (talk) 06:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

   I see no problem with dropping "now"; done. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

4. "the CSI effect had become widely accepted as reality among legal professionals despite the fact that there had not yet been any empirical research to validate or disprove it"—I think a comma before "despite"; and why not "despite little empirical evidence to ..." (who cares about the research—it's the data we want).

   Done. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

5. "crime shows are more likely to increase the rate of convictions rather than acquittals". Tony (talk) 02:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

   Done. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback so far! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

General response: If people are concerned that the prose isn't perfect after having been here for a month, then perhaps they should have visited this FAC earlier. I can't read people's minds, I can't predict the future, and I can't time travel. I can, however, deal with prose issues swiftly so long as reviewers actually voice their concerns. At this point, I would be both frustrated and confused if the FAC closed due to unresolved issues considering how many times I've asked for feedback with no response.

Of course, the goal is to improve articles, not to earn stars and stickers; if the consensus is that the article should be sent to peer review or looked over by an uninvolved copyeditor, then so be it. It's clear in my mind that this article is of FAC standards, but if I have to jump through a few more hoops to prove it, then that's what I'll do. My apologies if my words sound harsh. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Cryptic C62, when I looked at this a few days ago to see if it could be promoted, I spotted issues, which I mentioned above. Tony has listed some other issues. The reason I mentioned the length of time listed is not to impugn your work—it's to perhaps prod reviewers into looking at my concerns. It would be prudent to perhaps seek an independent copyedit to get these things smoothed out. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, I understand what you're saying. The "delegate hat vs. reviewer hat" comment also makes much more sense to me now. Thank you for clarifying. Again, my apologies for the harsh words. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.