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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bubbles (chimpanzee)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:13, 6 September 2009 [1].

Bubbles (chimpanzee)

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Nominator(s): Pyrrhus16 15:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I would like to nominate this rather unusual article for Featured Article status because I believe it meets the FA criteria. I think it is comprehensive and engaging, although the latter is probably due to the interesting facts within the article, as opposed to extremely excellent writing on my part. With that said, I welcome any comments or suggestions. Thank you. Pyrrhus16 15:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments ... This is one of the more unusual articles around, yes? It is nicely written, modestly illustrated. There were a few punctuation inconsistencies, which I simply fixed. I hope that's okay (some punctuation outside the quotation marks, some inside, stuff like that). Two of the links were firewalled, but I had no trouble getting through when I clicked on them directly (not using the aides provided above).
Writing. Nicely written. Clear sentence structure, no major grammatical errors, and in fact no minor ones either. The portions on the maids and the previous chimps was a bit unclear. It probably should be clearer that Bubbles didn't throw his feces on the wall, but some of his predecessors did.
Notability. Uh....well anything about MJ is notable, I suppose, and since Bubbles' autobiography is coming out, there will be some interest in his life.
Images. I'm not qualified to check these. Someone who understands free use mumbo-jumbo will have to do that.
Comprehensiveness. Do we know anything about Bubbles' life before his years with Michael Jackson? There is also that chimp in Ohio who went wacko and tried to rip someone's arm out. Is this a pattern when male chimps get to be a certain age? Is there something that the experts have to say about that?
Last Question. Is this for real? Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is what for real? This nomination? –Juliancolton | Talk 04:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments. I've tried to find more on Bubbles' life before Jackson, but to no avail. I'll see if I can find anything on other chimps being aggressive, and perhaps add it to the article as you suggested. Pyrrhus16 16:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC) [reply]
  • Comment. We need more information, assuming it exists, about Bubbles before and after the Jackson years. Unless Jackson was a closet ALF activist, he probably didn't "rescue" Bubbles as such, so what did happen? Also, the suicide attempt afterwards sounds implausible. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 04:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) I've tried Google Books, Google News and the Jackson books I own. I couldn't find anymore on his life before meeting Jackson. 2) I've changed rescued to adopted. 3) There has been no scientific evidence to rule out animal suicide, which is why it's presented as a possibility in the article, but not an outright lie. Pyrrhus16 16:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've found a couple of potentially useful news articles. I can email them to you if you want. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would be great! I have wiki email enabled, so you can send it from here. Pyrrhus16 17:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Outdent) A note on where Bubbles was born has been added, as well as some additional info. Pyrrhus16 18:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Is there a link missing in current ref 6 (Huey, Steve..)?
  • There was a link to the article, but following Jackson's death it redirected to an MTV tribute page for Jackson. Pyrrhus16 17:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you aware you're referencing "When Jackson's longtime friend Elizabeth Taylor attended the opening of the Whitman-Walker Clinic's Elizabeth Taylor Medical Center, she was accompanied by the singer and Bubbles. Jackson and the ape wore matching military uniforms." to a book classified as fiction??? http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=isbn%3A080217048X
  • Lol. I didn't notice that; I only read the one page on Google Books. I have removed it. Pyrrhus16 17:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thus, nicely illustrating why it's not wise to rely on Google books for sourcing, what'd you replace it with? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't replaced it with anything. I've removed the two sentences. Pyrrhus16 17:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The problem with the article is that it buys into the tabloid perspective that Michael Jackson rescued some poor animal, gave it a home, loved it, then sadly they had to part. But from a cursory reading of some of the stories, it seems that Bubbles was born into an animal lab, then was removed from his mother and sold to Bob Dunn of Bob Dunn's Animal Services, [2] a Hollywood company that trained animals for movies and commercials. At some point, Jackson seems to have purchased Bubbles, though the animal continued mostly to live with Dunn, being borrowed by Jackson when the latter wanted Bubbles around. The larger Bubbles became, the less that happened. Dunn reportedly decided to retire in January 2005, [3] and Bubbles was sent to an animal sanctuary, along with Dunn's other non-human primates: 11 chimpanzees and six orangutans in all. The "attempted suicide" story is almost certainly nonsense. (Though Dunn said he was retiring, his website still exists. [4])

The United States Department of Agriculture has criticized Dunn a few times for unsanitary conditions. A PETA investigation in 2004 led to further criticism. [5]

Many of the newspaper stories about Bubbles adopted a tone of mockery, which the WP article copies. I think it needs a rewrite, more sources to pin down where Bubbles was born and who purchased him from the lab, if that's what happened — or at least to report the discrepancies — and generally a more neutral tone and perspective. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's my understanding that Bubbles was purchased by Jackson through Dunn, the middle man. I couldn't find any more sources to shed light on his early life. Suicide in animals has not been ruled; it is believed to be a possibility. I doubt there will ever be a position on the topic that people agree on, and there probably won't be a conclusive answer to the debate on it. Pyrrhus16 15:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A few questions: do you have any reliable sources that offer evidence of non-human primate suicide? Do you have any that seriously suggest Bubbles did this, not counting mockery? What is your source that says Dunn bought Bubbles on Jackson's behalf?
Also, here's a link to the Washington Times story so that you don't need to link to a subscription-only site. Note that it says Bubbles wasn't visited by Jackson at the sanctuary, that's he's being maintained by public donations, that he could live until he's 60, and he was born in 1983. That probably belongs in the article. You might also want to research whether anything was left for Bubbles or the sanctuary in the will. Note also the discrepancy between the W/Times and a Telegraph article that says Jackson did visit him at the sanctuary.
There's a clip here suggesting that Jackson used sign language to communicate with Bubbles, which would be interesting to explore. [6]
The problem with the article is that it simply repeats the news sources — many of which were in turn repeating press releases from Jackson's staff, which were designed to make him look good — rather than using the news sources as a way of getting deeper into the story. For example, you repeat the claim that Jackson taught Bubbles to moonwalk, but there are clips on YouTube of Bubbles doing this, and he is simply walking backwards. [7] Do chimps tend to walk backwards anyway, or is this likely to have been mimicry? You may not get to the bottom of it, but an FA needs to explore it briefly, assuming the sources exist.
If I were writing this article, I would e-mail Bob Dunn (his address is on the website I linked to), and get as much information from him as I can. Then I would use what he tells me to find articles about it. He may even have an archive of articles he can direct you to, though bear in mind that he may not direct you to anything negative. Try some of the animal-welfare organizations to see if any of them wrote about the Jackson-Bubbles relationship. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 19:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is this profile that makes it sound like Bubbles was bought by Jackson through Dunn. I'll certainly add some of your suggestions to the article, and note the discrepencies about Jackson visiting Bubbles. I'll also look into emailing Dunn, to get some details from him. Pyrrhus16 17:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, animal suicide has been reported for many years, as seen in this article. In the Bubbles article, it is not presented as something he definitely attempted, but notes that it has been alleged as a possibility. Pyrrhus16 17:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your suicide source is from 1884. You'd need something more recent and rigorous. None of the sources you're citing are reporting it as a serious thing. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 20:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see any rigorous recent sources in my search. However, it doesn't change the fact that the suicide attempt claim was made, which is what is reported in the article and the references. It does not state that Bubbles did attempt suicide, but that the media reported an allegation. Pyrrhus16 17:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The sentence "The center for apes, where the care for each animal costs around $17,000, also houses 41 other chimpanzees and orangutans." needs to state the time period that the $17,000 figure applies to. JN466 22:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Pyrrhus16 17:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images. I've written to the Center to ask if they could release some images of Bubbles. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 22:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Not sure what the external link right after the birth year is supposed to be. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Must have been added with the intention of using it as a ref. I've removed it, along with the date, as Bubbles couldn't have been born in 1983 if he was adopted at the age of three by Jackson in 1985. Pyrrhus16 19:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—Big problems with the tone and the prose.

  • Opening sentence: "... Jackson. Jackson ...". Why not "... Jackson, who adopted ..."?
  • Erky-perky, not a good sentence (third one): "Despite the pair enjoying a close relationship, many media sources mocked what was reported as a friendship." There's noun plus -ing in a very awkward guise. The logic (based on "despite") is unclear—there was mockery and reporting of a friendship in the press, yes? Which bit is despite the "close relationship"? My head is spinning.
  • "The association"—that refers to this "relationship/friendship"? Now we have three words for the same thing; very confusing for the poor readers. "The association—along with other factors—led the public to think of Jackson as a bizarre eccentric, obsessed with recapturing his childhood, and he was subsequently dubbed "Wacko Jacko"." Are the other factors the child sex allegations? May as well not be coy about it. The giggles at the subsequent sharing of a two-bedroom hotel suite are already palpable.
  • "Thoughout" is odd.
  • It's all looking very bizarre; perhaps you could warn the readers before they get to the private toilet bit and the suicide attempt that this relationship was part of Michael Jackson's highly eccentric persona? The place to do it is in an expanded text around where you talk of the mockery. Needs a careful foregrounding right there. Tony (talk) 13:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Without getting into the pros-and-cons of the prose, the "other factors" aren't the child sex allegations, which came much later; they're undeniably weird but not particularly interesting tabloid claims - "He sleeps in a pyramid!", "He bought the Elephant Man's skeleton!", "He lives in a hyperbaric chamber!", "He lobbied Spielberg for the role of Peter Pan in Hook!", "He tried to file a patent on leaning backwards!" (those last two were true) and so on. They all built up the gradual "Whacko Jacko" figure, and deserve a mention in Michael Jackson (as indeed they are), but aren't significant enough in and of themselves to warrant listing here. – iridescent 19:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it was several years before the first set of allegations that he was named "Wacko Jacko". I've altered the lead per your concerns, and am working on your last request. Pyrrhus16 17:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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