Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alan Shearer/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 17:39, 17 August 2008 [1].

Alan Shearer edit

Nominator(s): - Toon⁰⁵

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I've improved the article substantially in the past few weeks, taking it from B-class to GA, and adding a ~~ridiculous~~ large amount of citations, rewriting most of the article to conform to guidelines and begging people for photos. After undergoing a Peer Review and the subsequent improvements, I hope it is just about ready to become a Featured Article. Thanks! - Toon⁰⁵ 17:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose There has been a lot of good work on this article over the past month or so but it is still not yet even close to FA standard. The main basic issues are the prose, the stub sections such as "Early years" and "Style of play" and nothing about his life outside football.

I will give this a proper review when I have the time. BUC (talk) 17:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to the "Early years" section, I would point to another footballer FA, Thierry Henry, whose "Early years" section is 1 sentence longer - there's not much more to say to be honest. Thierry Henry also passed without information about his personal life, and again, it's not very colourful. I welcome any changes you can make to the prose though (and the rest of the article), as having been through Peer Review, and asking specifically about that aspect, there wasn't the feedback requred to do much improvement - excepting copyediting etc. - Toon⁰⁵ 18:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inexperienced in taking articles to FA, and there is a lack of other editors to the article at the moment - if you can improve the article, then please do! - Toon⁰⁵ 18:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added some material to the "Early years" section, but I'm loathe to add more just to make it look longer - it's about the same length as Thierry Henry now. The same for "Style of Play" - I think it covers everything, lengthening would just be to make it look longer, but if you can think of anything that's missing from it, please mention it or even add it in. :) - Toon⁰⁵ 13:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I merged two of the paragraphs of the lead; they covered essentially the same topic, and I'm not sure why they were seperate in the first place. I may take a look at the article later. Generally, I just list out examples of concerns, but since you say you're inexperienced at the FAC process, I'll probably just correct most of the concerns myself. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, I appreciate your taking the time. - Toon⁰⁵ 01:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I reworded some bits in the lead and corrected some things. I'm not an expert in football, so you'll have to forgive me if I made a silly mistake. Nousernamesleft (talk) 02:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment Image:AlanShearerBanner.jpg, fails WP:NFCC#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 08:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, should be removed. Nousernamesleft (talk) 15:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and removed it, then tagged the image as orphaned free use. It'll be deleted in seven days unless someone can find a use for it. Nousernamesleft (talk) 16:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MickMacNee has re-added the image, and I agree with him - the image goes very far in demonstrating the standing Shearer has in the city; I don't think it can be adequately conveyed without it. I've added a bit to reflect this within the text. - Toon⁰⁵ 16:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree - his standing within a city isn't sufficiently important to warrant a fair use image. Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hrrmm, well I'm not particularly familiar with the whole FU scene, so I'll defer to your experience. I'm not going to edit war with Mick over this one, so I'll let you take it to his talk page. :) - Toon⁰⁵ 23:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather not go to such lengths over a single image; the fair use guidelines are fairly loose and allow a lot of space in interpretation, so I won't bother if you'd like to keep it. Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

oppose - fails NFCC#8 and FAC#3, inappropriate use of images Fasach Nua (talk) 12:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh... ok, I've taken the image out. - Toon⁰⁵ 19:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored it. Given Fasach Nua's reputation as an over-zealous applier of NFCC#8, which in itself is a highly disupted policy point open to interpretation, I would advise you to seek other opinions if you agree it should be removed (rather than taking Fasach's word on it). Per WP:BRD, I reverted the original removal, therefore repeated removal requires discussion first, once it's removal was reverted once. To do otherwise is edit warring, which is a behaviour Fasach has two Request for commments open about him at this point. The reference to FAC#3 is irrelevant, as it merely stems from the view that it fails NFCC#8, which it doesn't. MickMacNee (talk) 19:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Whatever, I'm not going to war over it. I've emailed the club in an attempt to get the permission to use the photo, or details of the copyright holder. - Toon⁰⁵ 20:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You should probably note that BRD is just an essay though, not policy or guideline. I do agree that this image is significant however. - Toon⁰⁵ 20:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment I dont know if this is a simple mistake or a result of little knowledge, but as soon as I started reading the article I was quite upset and shocked even. The first 2 sentences caught my attention:

Alan Shearer OBE (born 13 August 1970) is a former footballer who played as a striker in the English Premier League for the England national team. Known during his playing career as being a classic English centre forward, he is now a television pundit for the BBC.

Bad wording and lack of initial content! WHERE was he born? This should always be mentioned in the brackets with the D.O.B. He played as a striker in the English premier league with the England national team? On top of bad wording, this statement doesnt make sense! The English national team is not a participant in the English premiere league, notice the words Premier and League! He played for Newcastle united in the EPL!

The first few sentences should give away as much as they can about the subject, there's no point on saving it for later. Give the reader an immediate idea about the subject. A more appropriate opening would be:

Alan Shearer (born etc etc etc) is a former English footballer who spent/played his career as a striker for Newcastle United in the English premiere league and the England national team. Remembered for his classical (possible POV) style of centre forward play, he now plies/serves his career as a football pundit for BBC.

Mind you thats a very quick idea of a possibility. Feel free to dissect it if you wish, but its much more appropriate than the current holding one. Domiy (talk) 12:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment While I entirely agree with Domiy's comments above, I decided to look through some FA's of fellow sportsmen. I looked at Thierry Henry and Paul Collingwood. I saw neither had the place of birth in the top line. Therefore, I went through the Today's Featured Article archives of July and August to see a biography that did. There wasn't a single Featured Article that followed the above reccomendation. These included (and let's not forget, these are not simply Featured Articles, they are deemed good enough to be given centre-stage on Wikipedia's Main Page): Joseph Francis Shea, William Gibson, Jay Chou, Thomas Playford IV, Winfield Scott Hancock, André Kertész, Yao Ming (which is worth looking at, considering how inferior it is compared to Alan Shearer's article, yet Yao Ming got FA status), Matthew Brettingham, William Wilberforce, Anna May Wong, Roy Welensky, and finally Edward VIII of the United Kingdom.

Therefore, it is preferable, but clearly not essential, by the standards set by those articles. Nevertheless, I will add in this detail and do what I can with the article a little later. South-East7™^Talk/_Contribs 12:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(E/C) Hey Domiy, thanks for the comments -

firstly I think Nousernamesleft accidentally removed the "and" from between "League" and "with" (due to the self-confessed lack of football knowledge) when reviewing for this FAC (above) and I missed it, I've fixed it now :)
Oh and he played for Blackburn and Southampton too, so I decided to leave out a club name instead of listing all three in the first para, as it's covered later in the lede.
I've added the place of birth into the brackets!

I think that takes care of most of your points... feel free to point anything else out. - Toon⁰⁵ 13:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That I did, apologies. To be frank, I've never heard of any requirement or even suggestion that the subject of an article's place of birth be placed within the DOB brackets - I've seen featured articles in which it's not even mentioned in the lead. I'm not sure why you seem to think otherwise, seeing as Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Opening_paragraph says nothing about it. Nousernamesleft (talk) 15:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I actually removed it a while back after reading something about too much info in the brackets... but I can't seem to find it now. I have seen it before in lede - I don't think it's a big deal either way. - Toon⁰⁵ 15:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth shouldn't be in the brackets per WP:DATE. Peanut4 (talk) 19:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's where I read it, thanks for taking it out. - Toon⁰⁵ 20:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - 1a. Sorry, but at this time the prose needs improvements. These examples are all from the lead and Early life section, so there are probably more issues later.

The second England national football team link in the lead isn't needed. Please remove it.
"finishing as the tournament's top scorer with five goals." Which tournament? The Champions League or Euro 1996? Assuming it's Euro 1996, say "finishing as the latter tournament's top scorer with five goals."
"A world-record $15 million (can't figure out how to create pound sign, so don't worry about that) move to Newcastle United, his boyhood heroes, followed..." "his boyhood heroes" needs rewording.
"in fact, Shearer was one of the most prolific goalscorers in English football." At the time, or of all-time? It wouldn't hurt to give more details, assuming they are properly cited in the body.
"Shearer was linked with managerial positions at his former clubs, however, he currently works in media with the BBC." Perhaps change the first comma to a semi-colon.
First sentence of Early years: "Born in Gosforth, Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1970 to Alan and Anne Shearer, Shearer's was a working-class family." Entire sentence needs restructuring. I would try "Shearer was born in Gosforth, Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1970 to Alan and Anne Shearer, and raised in a working-class family." The working-class family part can be improved, but this would be better. Normally I wouldn't mind seeing his first name repeated in a family sectoin, but I fear it could be confusing, as he is named after his father.
"he originally playing in midfield" Don't you mean played?
"It was playing for the Wallsend club that he was scouted by Southampton F.C.'s scout Jack Hixon..." Another grammar error. It should be "It was while playing for...". Also a redundancy with scouted and scout.
"a time he would later refer to as "the making of me"" All quotes need a citation.

You're obviously a Newcastle United fan, meaning you have great memories of Shearer and want to see this reach FA, but it needs further copy-editing. Unlike SE7, I don't believe this is as good as Yao Ming's article yet, but it can be with more work. I wish you all the best here. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback Giants, I've tried to address the issues you've pointed out, I've changed the sixth point to "Shearer was born in Gosforth, Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1970 to working-class parents Alan and Anne Shearer," sounds better to me. I'll take another look at the rest of the article and try to fix it up. - Toon⁰⁵ 00:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to let anyone know, all the faults found by Giants, as listed above, are now corrected. South-East7™^Talk/_Contribs 12:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've also done some rephrasing of the rest of his career section to try and combat similar issues. - Toon⁰⁵ 16:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 12:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

what makes the following reliable sources?
- ~~http://www.englandcaps.co.uk/~~
- ~~http://www.englandstats.com/~~
- ~~http://soccerlens.com/~~
~~Current ref 39 Injusry forces Shearer... is lacking a last access date~~
~~Current ref 74 BBC SPORT Fottball InternationalsShearare rejects... is lacking all bibliographic information, it needs publisher and last access date at the least.~~

Otherwise sources look okay, links checked with the link checker tool. Note I'm on the road the rest of this week, so replies may be delayed somewhat. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ealdgyth, thanks for taking the time. Firstly englandstats.com is very highly regarded at WP:FOOTY, linked to here - it's probably the most complete collection of national team stats anywhere on the web. I have replaced all instances of englandcaps.com and soccerlens.com with BBC reports, FA.com and a UNICEF primary source, hopefully that should take care of the concerns. - Toon⁰⁵ 00:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've also fixed the info in the citations now. - Toon⁰⁵ 16:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Normal   0         false   false   false                             MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, well since that source probably wasn't reliable, I've (painstakingly) replaced all of the references to englandstats.com with reliable ones. I've also reworded it all a bit. Hope this takes care of your concerns! - Toon⁰⁵ 22:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by User:Dweller

I have tagged the article for citations needed on a couple of claims.
Multiple problems with "Despite coming off the back of a disappointing Euro 1992 campaign with England in which the team failed to progress beyond the group stages, Blackburn Rovers offered Southampton £3.6 million for Shearer." Says who, it was disappointing? Unclear if the campaign was disappointing for England, or Shearer's performance was poor (or both). No citation for any of it. What's the causal link between the first and second half of the sentence that prompts the "despite"? (I think I understand it, but it should be clear)

NB I have no problem with the early years section - his pre-fame story isn't really too interesting. There's enough there, IMHO. --Dweller (talk) 15:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dweller. The claims you added {{citation needed}} tags to are actually sourced within the reference at the end of the paragraph. I'll try to find another source if you'd like, since it's self-referencing to his autobiography. I've rephrased the sentence to say: "Despite making just one goalless appearance as England failed to progress past the Euro 1992 group stages that summer,[4] Shearer was soon subject to a British transfer record-breaking £3.3million bid from Blackburn Rovers.[5]", with [4] and [5] (obviously) indicating added references. Hopefully this makes clear the link and sentence in general. I'd be happy to hear anything you suggest if it's not clear :) - Toon⁰⁵ 16:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re:Personal life Ok, with regard to comments in this FAC, I've added a Personal life section to the article. It contains basic info about his family, marriage etc., if anyone can find any more info, feel free to point me to it, but there has never been much publicity for his private life (and this is taken from his autobiography). - Toon⁰⁵ 22:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.