Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1988 Giro d'Italia/archive2

1988 Giro d'Italia

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 08:08, 21 June 2014 [1].

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1988 Giro d'Italia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/1988 Giro d'Italia/archive1
• Featured article candidates/1988 Giro d'Italia/archive2

Nominator(s): Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I've put in some considerable labor into the article to bring it from what it was ([2]). I tried to get it to FA maybe a year ago, I don't remember exactly when since it was a long time ago. Anyways, that nomination stalled after only one editor contributed a lot of feedback and eventually supported it after I resolved the outlined issues. I would have pursued another go at FA soon after, but college got me busy. Now I'm getting free time so I thought I would try again as I feel this article is deserving of the status. I do respond speedily. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

comments from JMiall

A review of up until the first large table.

N.B. I only have passing knowledge of cycling and none of the specifics of the Giro.

Previous FACs have wanted sport specific terminology to be explained the first time it is used so I'm applying the same standard here.

• I would mention explicitly in the 1st sentence that the Giro is a cycling race.

Fixed.

• Don't use the word 'edition' in the lead without explaining it as this is not the normal usage

Replaced with running.

• Is it important to mention the details of the first and last stages before mentioning things like the total length of the race or number of stages or competitors?

I added the number of stages and participants.

• Is the nationality of the the winners important enough to be mentioned in the lead and is the non-Italian-ness of the top 3 important enough to be mentioned in the 1st paragraph?

I feel it is very noteworthy because of the rarity of the non-Italian sweep podium. It has only occurred I think 6 times in the 96 races.

• is the 'famed fourteenth stage' famed due to this occurance, this route generally or is it the fourteenth stage that is famed, wherever it happens to go?

What happened on the fourteenth stage of this race is one of the most defining moments in cycling history. Do you want me to remove the famed from the sentence? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 05:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If it is one of the defining moments in cycling history then why not say this explicitly in the lead? JMiall₰ 06:51, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Does what I have work now? I'm not sure how to phrase it exactly.

I think it is OK now. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• link General classification in the Giro d'Italia when pink jersey is first mentioned?

Fixed.

• For the 2nd paragraph I'd treat it all in chronogical order rather than skipping about.

Fixed.

• missing fullstop after 'classification'

Don't know when that one got removed ahah. Good catch

• what is a neo-professional?

This is explained in the classification leadership section.

• link peloton on first use

Fixed.

• is it necessary to mention 180 cyclists twice so close together?

Fixed

• Is the presentation of the teams important? If so can we have more information about what happened at it? If not then does it need mentioning?

Fixed, adding a small part about it.

• Who invited the teams to compete? Was there anything unusual about the teams invited? Presumably they were all invited to send a squad of 9?

Fixed the first. There wasn't anything unusual about the teams invited and

• Who named the riders as contenders? Could this be better stated as something like 'x named y and z as the pre-race favourites for the a and b classifications'

Does 'l'Unità writer Gino Sala, author Bill McGann, and an El Mundo Deportivo writer named several riders as contenders for the overall classification, including Andrew Hampsten, Urs Zimmermann, Erik Breukink, Franco Chioccioli, and Pedro Delgado.' this work better?

Yes, if this the info available. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed.

• 'came into the Giro in great shape' - if it is was just someone's opinion he was in great shape then say so. If he was in great form in previous races then say that.

Fixed

• Why didn't the italians realise the difficulty of the stage?

Fixed.

• 'coming off from a cycling break as a result of injuries' -> 'after a break from cycling due to injuries'

Fixed

• 'considered by some' - who?

Fixed.

• 'Many media outlets felt that the overall victory would likely go to a non-Italian rider' - if this is worth mentioning then establish why

Fixed.

• when did Moreno Argentin injure his knee?

Earlier in the season, the article doesn't say and I tried searching newspapers about it but no results showed up. Would 'Before he injured his right knee earlier in the season...' work?

Yes, I only meant did he injure it before the race or at some point during the race. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed.

• what's a categorized climb?

Fixed, just seems awkward to me. Thoughts?

I think it is better. Maybe I'd use brackets. I think it is important to have some explanation as to what it means as I don't think it is clear to all readers what the difference between a categorized and un-categorized climb would be. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed.

• what's a summit arrival?

Fixed.

• It was hoped - by who?

Fixed

• you start telling us events from the race itself in the route section

If this is referring to the alterations to stage 11, I thought they were relevant there because the section is called routes and stages and pertains to the information in the table and the route itself, obviously.

The article sections are set out in approximate chronological order (although swapping sections 2&3 would make this closer) so to my eye it makes for an odd story if you put spoilers in the intro. JMiall₰ 06:51, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it is in a good spot because the section goes into the route's details and also has route analysis, so I believe that briefly talking of stage modifications and cancellations to the route in that section is very appropriate even if it is a spoiler, a justified spoiler. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:36, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• 'the Stelvio Pass, but it was skipped due to snowdrifts that had developed on the pass' - too many passes?

Fixed.

• what's Merano 2000?

A mountain, there's no article for it so I didn't link. if that helps

maybe write 'the mountain, Merano 2000' on the first use then. JMiall₰ 06:51, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed.

• 'storied climbs of old' - so is there an article we can link to about these stories?

Fixed.

• can we have some more explanation of why italian cyclists were bad at climbs but non-italians weren't?

Fixed

• 'the team time trial could be a source of some sparks' - is this a quote? if not then it should be reworded, if it is it needs quotation marks.

Fixed.

• other than having a lot of climbs how did the route compare to other years? in terms of distance, number of stages, number of time trials? what was the normal number of rest days?

JMiall₰ 22:39, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

The distance was about 300km shorter than the previous one and had one less rest day and stage. There is no source for that comparison though.

All that's needed is sources for the numbers. Simple maths along the lines of 'a<b' should be fine. See WP:CALC. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed.

• also the photo of Delgado is from much later. Can you find an image from 88 to use? Or close to then? JMiall₰ 22:46, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Found one from 93

Can this also have a 'pictured here...' JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed.

some more comments:

• in the 2009 FA article the terms mountain, flat and intermediate stage are used. Is there a reason for the difference?

The organizers used official terms like that nowadays, but there is no way of knowing what they called each stage type so I just classified it by ones with classified mountains or not to be safe.

Why is there no way of knowing? Did they have official stage types then? If not then maybe that column of the table needs a footnote. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

None of the articles that I have found online have specific categories for the stages, other than saying which ones contain mountains. To know how exactly they classified the stages would require the manual they give to each rider and team manager before the race with the full layout with the stage routes mapped out and whatnot. This was available for the 2009 page which is why they used such names as "intermediate" due to links like this. I emailed some person about a topic that I did not have enough info on for the 1988 Giro and got redirected to Andrew Hampsten himself he said that he mentioned that he would have to look up something in the race book, but he didn't even have it anymore. To know how they classified the stages would need the race book for official wording and whatnot because none of the articles that discuss the stages give any real particular classification of the stages. I hope that is understandable; it seemed to make sense as I wrote it...

• I'd quite like to see a column for the total ascent on each stage as well if the data is known

None of the articles I used or looked at had any specific numbers, later years (mid 90s) of the ELM source I used had some data similar to what you want

• it is quite common to see distance vs height plots in newspaper coverage of the tour de france which help to give an overview of the stages. are the same things available for the giro? could you generate these yourself and add to the stage table? maybe some openstreetmap people would help to generate these?
• were there any prizes? JMiall₰ 23:16, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Im sure there was prize money, but I have not seen any sources that talk of the amounts.

and more:

• for the caption of the image of Hampsen add 'pictured here on the Tour de France in 1993'.

Fixed.

• There are no images from 1988 in the article. Have you tried contacting anyone directly to ask if they are willing to let you use any of their photos? For example Bill Cordero on Flickr has a set of images. There's also things like this photo of Hampsten's bike. JMiall₰ 07:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I briefly talked to the Velonews photographer who had some really good images, but he said I would have to pay for rights. Cordero's photos are also all rights reserved and would likely require money to gain access to them for personal use.

Yes I realise they are rights reserved and that any individual photographer may be unlikely to release photos, but this will have been such a widely photographed event that I don't think it is unrealistic that someone who has some photos might be willing to release them.

I shall attempt to contact Cordero.

UPDATE: Cordero said that he had no problem with me using some photos so I uploaded two photos from his album. Got two pics from the race.

• In the race overview I would use riders' whole names on their first use as none have been mentioned in prose for a while. Then surname only after that.

Fixed.

• 'a team time trial that stretched 40 km' - is this long for a team time trial? could be written better.

Fixed.

• link Montedison

Fixed.

• was the cancellation of the 11th stage important in the final result? did anyone have a big lead at the point it was cancelled?

Not particularly, the whole peloton was together at the point and likely heading to a sprint finish.

• 'which had been polluting the Bormida river' - just checking that the italian sources say that they had definitely been polluting the river and not just that the protestors claimed this

Fixed.

• 'and the fatigue setting in' - unecessary 'the'? or replace with 'and rider fatigue'

Fixed.

• 'go through with the stage' -> go ahead with?

Fixed.

• is maglia rosa the standard english term?

Most commentators use that, but in the lead — where its first used — I have the italian-translation in the text.

• 'jumped off the front' - ?

Fixed.

• 'eventually shook the other two riders' - i'm not keen on the language. 'shook off' would be a bit better

Fixed.

• 'The group rolled into Innsbruck, while Franco Vona made a last minute attack' - this makes it sound like the group were taking it easy while Vona was trying

Fixed.

• the end of the 18th stage is listed as both 'Vetriolo Terme ski station' and 'Valico del Vetriolo'. Are these the same place? Check there aren't more like this.

Fixed.

• 'lightning began to strike and rain began to pour' - the began began makes it sound like a story

Fixed.

• 'The final podium was rounded out' -> 'The other podium positions were filled'?

Fixed.

• Is it possible to say concisely what was tested for in the doping controls?

There was a list of banned substances that the UCI tested for.

• The doping section might benefit from some kind of context - did riders test positive in the giro in other years in the same period? or in other races of the same year? did any riders later admit to doping in this race?

Yeah some riders tested positive in the Tour according to this. I added this section during the last FAN process I believe because the reviewer felt it was necessary to have it even if no one tested positive or later admitted to doping in this race.

I'm happy for the content to exist but the section is very short and needs bulking up a bit. Some context would help with this (and is the type of thing an encyclopedia article should be doing anyway). JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

After looking through the ELM pages, I found one instance of riders missing the tests and have added that. If that helps.

• link cyclamen?

Fixed.

• 'a heavy snow cover forced the organization to skip the mountain pass from the stage route' -> 'heavy snow cover forced the organisation to omit this from the stage'?

Fixed.

• In the Classification leadership by stage table I would be tempted to shade stage 4b in the winner column to show that this is a team not a rider's name. Also it might be useful to include the leading time margin after each stage. Might make the table a bit busy though.

I feel that this table is fine and any adjustments would take up even more room and its almost cramped already.

• why are teams linked in only some of the final classification tables? JMiall₰ 10:45, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll link those in a second

there is a 1988 image of Milan Jurčo who according to his article was in the 1988 Giro. JMiall₰ 16:02, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

None of the sources agree with him finishing where that wiki page says he did. He did not finish the race if he started it.

Some points based google translations of the same article in other languages. I think these sound like they should be included in your article. I'm starting to think that this 14th stage needs its own section and possibly later its own article.

When first writing the race overview the 14th stage was two paragraphs and had much of the stuff you mentioned below and I feel like to add much more detail would place too much of an emphasis on the stage, although I was considering make it it's own page at some point cause almost every article in english is solely focused on that stage.

es:

• 'Also noteworthy is the performance of Mexican Raul Alcala , co-winner of the race, which finished 14th team' - I'm not sure if they mean it was noteworthy just because Mexicans speak Spanish though.
• 'Andrew Hampsten, warned by his manager, was equipped with no less than gloves neoprene , a sweater of wool and ski goggles for this ascension'
• 'reaching ice form changes gears or brakes'
• 'Johan van der Velde , leader of the mountain to the time, and which crowned the summit first, had to stop a few miles to start the descent, unable to control the bike because of the cold, to ask your athletic director clothes and drink hot tea and brandy. Many cyclists performed the decline in their team cars finished on the bike just the last three kilometers of the stage'

it:

• 'while some went to meet the principles of frostbite'

nl:

• 'A number of riders that the entire trail aflegde, filed protest but the judges saw the incident through the fingers' JMiall₰ 18:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

in Jean-François Bernard's article it mentions that he crashed, got injured and withdrew. If this was while he still had a fair chance of winning it probably needs mentioning here. JMiall₰ 07:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Added.

Comments by Parutakupiu

Comment: I've made a reasonable amount of copyediting to this article at the request of the nominator. An important task that needs to be done is to carefully check all of the inline references for validity and usefulness. I feel there is an excessive use of them throughout the article. Many times, a citation is sourced by two or more references without real necessity, and I've seen a few cases where a source does not contain the information that is being referenced. Please, confirm this. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:40, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I removed a couple refs from the race overview that I found to be excessive. I used sources frequently when writing to know where what I was writing came from and so that anything possibly needing a source for verification would have it. I, personally, don't believe there are any refs that are used when not pertaining to the info in the sentence. Thanks for the assistance and comments! Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 01:31, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I understand your method but clearly there are many instances that need to be cleaned up. I'm going to try and point them out to you in my section-by-section review below. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Section-by-section reference review

Teams:

• The La Stampa source was used as reference for the participation of 20 teams and the number of peloton riders. My analysis of that source told me that it didn't have that content, so I already removed the corresponding ref tags.

It does specifically refer to twenty teams being invited and nine riders per team when it says "...Torriani invitera venti squadre, con nove corridori..." So I believe the ref should be put back. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:10, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

My bad, I apologise. Please do revert. Parutakupiu (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

For future reference (lol no pun intended), just point out any sources in question and i'll run through it too. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:35, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

• Is it really necessary to explain what a "presentation of teams" is?

In the review above I was told to explain what happened at it. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:10, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Pre-race favorites:

• Em-dashes used in pairs, should be unspaced. This or replace with en-dashes, which can be left spaced.

Done, believe I nabbed em all. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:35, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

• "... [which are mountains that award mountains classification points]... ". Why the square brackets? Plus, I'd leave only "which award mountains classification points".

Done. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:35, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Route and stages:

• "... would keep the race hotly contested to the end.[3][2]" and "The organizers chose to not include any rest days.[3][2]" – Reverse ref tag order.
• "... and stage 15, to the mountain, Merano 2000 mountain.[14][15]"
• Phrasing suggestion: "Another stage had with a mountain-top finish, the demanding was stage 18, which consisted of a climbing time trial to Valico del Vetriolo."
• "In addition, this race contained one fewer stage, but one more set of half stages than the prior year's race.[18]" – Already understood from the previous sentence.

Fixed all those outlined above. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 22:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Race overview:

• In image caption on Bernard, it's not clear if the "three stages" are the same or not. Also, is Bernard the guy on the left? Signal that with a "(left)" after his name.
• "... however, the following day he did not start the leg.[39]" Maybe reinforce the idea by saying that he withdrew from the race?
• Phrasing suggestion: "The eighteenth stage, an uphill 18 km (11.2 mi) individual time trial, would prove critical in deciding the overall winner of the Giro, as it was an 18 km (11.2 mi) individual time trial that lead up a mountain.[16]"

Fixed. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 22:46, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Support. Good luck this time! Parutakupiu (talk) 00:33, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

some more comments from JMiall

• I'm still not getting a good idea from the article that this race contained what you say is one of the more important stages in cycling

I added a paragraph about this in the new aftermath section. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 19:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• The article is missing any kind of post-race or legacy section. Did this race have impact on subsequent Giros or cycling generally? On the careers of any of the people who did well or badly? Were any injuries career ending? Did the competitors or teams give interviews where they assessed their performance against expectations? Did more fans watch in subsequent years? This type of section is standard in FAs about specific sporting events.

I added Breukink and Zimmermann's and Hampsten's in the new aftermath section. I am looking through the articles to find more rider critiques. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 19:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• This article does a good job of explaining the pre-race situation but doesn't really cover the general context (the 360deg view that is mentioned somewhere). If you look at the article on the charity shield at FAC at the moment I think it does a much better job than this one on this aspect. Maybe the current pre-race favourites section could be renamed and extended by a paragraph? For example the article on Grand Tours compares the relative popularity of the Giro and Tour de France in different decades in the lead.

Would you like me to describe how the Giro is not as popular as the Tour is in many aspects and how riders feel it has harder climbs and roads? This here and this talks about some of what I just said and I would use that in the part if that is what you're asking me to talk about. The first American riders also began to compete in the mid 80s, but I don't know what I could say other than the range of the Giro was expanding into North America or something. This also reinforces how its the second most important to the TOur. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 18:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• I wanted more explanation of the presentation of the teams because I'm not familiar with it. In football, a sport I am familiar with, for a major tournament the squad list is often released to the press some time before the tournament and a press conference held at some later point for each team but there isn't any kind of event involving all the teams just before the start of the event. So here who are the teams presented to? The press? The public? Local dignatories? Are all the members of the team present or is it just the manager with a list and a few selected riders? Are the teams already known to the public before the presentation so the presentation is just a formality or is it a surprise? I don't think the article needs to cover all of this, I'm just suggesting that as currently written the information isn't of much use to someone not already familiar with presentations in the Giro. JMiall₰ 15:42, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed, i think... This a little better? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 18:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• I left a message on JMiall's talk page about addressing the issues on June 1, and he/she has since edited wikipedia, but has not responded on here... So what do i do? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 03:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment/support. For what it is worth: in the past I have checked this article for correctness, see for example the talk page, or my edits to this article before the review started. In my opinion, it is comprehensive, well-researched and neutral. The other Featured article criteria (if it is well-written) are harder to verify for me, and since I have followed many cycling races it is impossible for me to judge if this article is suitable for the non-cycling fan, so I will not give any judgement on that. I'll leave it open to the person closing this candidacy to decide how much my support should count; if for some reason I am not allowed to take part in this FAC because I helped editing this article, then ignore my text. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 09:46, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Edge! Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 00:38, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

SupportComments from Hamiltonstone. I'm close to supporting. A few queries.

• I think the sentence "Breukink had been part of the non-Italian podium in 1987, behind Ireland's Stephen Roche and Great Britain's Robert Millar." can be dropped from the lead, as it is excessive detail for the article summary. However, it is a useful detail that appears to be missing from the actual article text! It will need a citation.

Fixed.Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• I think the lead would benefit from some mention of the significance of the fourteenth stage in cycling circles. Perhaps something like "The fourteenth stage of the 1988 Giro, conducted in adverse weather including a snowstorm, has been recognised as an iconic event in the history of the Giro."

Fixed.Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Because of the structure of the preceding sentence, it is not clear here whether Hinault is talking about himself, or Jean-Francois Bernard: "In addition, Bernard Hinault told him that if he could do well in this edition of the Giro, he could one day lead a team in the Tour de France". If he's talking about Jean-Francois, then it should read: "In addition, Bernard Hinault told [Sala? or Jean-Francois?] that if Jean Francois could do well in this edition of the Giro, he could one day lead a team in the Tour de France"

Fixed.Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "In previous years, the organizers had made the race easier for the Italian favorites by disregarding some of the harder climbs." Odd use of the word "diregarding". Do you mean they were not included in the race? If so, suggest you substitute "excluding". Even so, it leaves one wondering what "the" harder climbs are - it makes it sound as though there is a specific list of mountain climbs from which one choses the climbs for a Giro. If that is not the case, then change the end of the sentence to "by including fewer hard climbs".

Fixed.Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "The nineteenth stage featured three categorized climbs. Zimmermann attacked on the first, the Duran Pass, and remained out in front for the whole stage. However, he was later caught by Stefano Giuliani,..." Something's wrong here. if Zimmerman remained in front the whole time, then he couldn't be caught later. I'm wondering if categorized climbs (of which there were three) are being confused with the stage as a whole (of which there was just one)?

Fixed, I believe that got messed up through the various edits I've done to the text. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "The organization performed anti-doping controls throughout the race." Which organisation?

Fixed. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Hampsten stated that Jean-François Bernard and Pedro Delgado both lacked awareness..." Odd use of the word "awareness". What on earth did he mean?

Fixed, I believe. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I have done a bit of copyediting - feel free to check. hamiltonstone (talk) 13:24, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Image check

• File:1988 Giro d'Italia route.svg - no issues
• File:Urbino-palazzo ducale02.jpg - Flickr origin, licencing reviewed and sound
• File:Pédro DELGADO.jpg - own work, no issues
• File:Lago del Matese.jpg - own work, no issues
• File:Jean Francois Bernard Stage 11 Giro.jpg - non-free use rationale. This is tricky. The nominator/uploader correctly notes that this is currently the only image in the article of a rider during the 1988 race: the others are all taken in different years. At the same time, I note that there is this image of the particular rider at Commons. The question is: does this mean the image meets nfcc#1 (no free equivalent), or not? I'd let the delegate make the call, but an editor could strengthen the case for retaining this image if the article made explicit reference to the team uniform, or to Bernard's membership of the team - provided, of course, there are sources to support such mentions. A point like this would then give this specific image of him more salience, because of the prominent place of the jersey.

• I believe this has now been resolved through explicit reference not only to the image's subject but to the team colours shown in the image.hamiltonstone (talk) 04:02, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• File:1988 Giro Stage 11 Start Parma.jpg - non-free use rationale. I am not convinced about this one. It shows a general crowd of people and cyclists at the start of a race stage. It could be anywhere, any year. I am not convinced it meets the restrictive criteria nfcc#8: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." In contrast, i would accept that the non-free images of specific, leading riders (eg. the one above) can be defended under this criterion.

Well if this helps, there is a banner in the back that has the logo for the 71st Giro on it, which would specify this edition as well as Podenzana wearing the pink jersey in the center. The photo was also taken on the same day as the Bernard photo. If not, I'll just put back the original image I had of the gavia pass. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 16:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I just went ahead and replaced the image. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:54, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I think that's the best solution. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:51, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• File:Andy HAMPSTEN.jpg - own work, no issues
• File:Passo dello stelvio.jpg - own work, no issues

My view is: ditch the Parma Start image, and see if you can tweak the article text to emphasise Bernard's place in the Toshiba-Look team or find some wierd fashion magazine article that tells us how the Toshiba-Look team jerseys got designed / who designed them! hamiltonstone (talk) 12:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC) The changes made mean all images are now appropriately licenced. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:02, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

So on the team's page it states that who the jersey was designed by, so would I just alter the caption to something like "Jean-François Bernard pictured signing in at the start of the eleventh stage wearing the Toshiba Look jersey that was designed by Benetton who drew influence from the artworks of Piet Mondrian." and then put the source in the caption? Cause if I were to mention something about Toshiba's jerseys in the text I feel that would be out of place at any point in the article... and I also feel that I would need to talk about every other team's jerseys.... Thoughts? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 16:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

That's great, yes I would do something like that. Let me kow when you've had a go at it, and I can copyedit the caption once you've drafted it. Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 01:51, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Done! Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 03:19, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Note -- I'm about ready to promote this but pls review duplicate links (you can use this script to highlight them) and see what's really necessary. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:00, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Awesome! I've removed all the ones I believed were unnecessary (8ish). Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 12:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.