Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1956 FA Cup Final

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 21:02, 17 November 2008 [1].

1956 FA Cup Final edit

Nominator(s): Oldelpaso (talk), Struway2 (talk)

Following the related recent FA Bert Trautmann, a nomination for a football (soccer) match of note from the 1950s. Progress on the article has been steady for a few months. It became a GA in September, and since then a significant amount of information from contemporary sources has been added. Most of the significant publications about both the clubs who contested the match have been consulted, and we now feel it is ready for the scrutiny of FAC. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:12, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Have de-capitalised one link title. Please could you point out where Template:Citation is used, as I can't find it. Struway2 (talk) 15:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I failed to make myself clear, not for the first time... I can't find where in the article we have used the Template:Citation format, as opposed to the Cite xxx format. Struway2 (talk) 13:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find it using the "edit refs" tool, I have, but it shows up in the edit window on the bottom, where the templates used in the article are listed. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not guilty, in that case :-) It's transcluded by Cite journal (see [2], about 12th item down), which I have used. Struway2 (talk) 15:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Botheration! There goes my easiest way to cheat and find that issue... oh well! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative support—I've read only the lead. The underlying writing is mostly very good, but it does seem to need a careful copy-edit for polishing. Here are examples.

  • Snake: "The showpiece event of English football's primary cup competition, the Football Association Challenge Cup, better known as the FA Cup, it was contested between Manchester City and Birmingham City." We lose the sense of what "it" refers to; winding. Turn into two separate sentences, with a stop after "Cup", possibly.
    • I've scanned through the text for further long or tortuous sentences, and altered one or two. Of course there's always the possibility that my over-familiarity with the article might mean I've missed one. Oldelpaso (talk) 15:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Colon after "progress" would be better (a "drumroll").
  • "Manchester City took an early lead through Joe Hayes, but Noel Kinsey equalised midway through the first half"—is "equalised" (without the object) normal lingo in this area? Or is it your invention here? Tony (talk) 14:38, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quick reply re "equalised": this is normal usage; see Chambers, 2nd definition. Struway2 (talk) 15:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Minor Comments

  • Details section has no refs.
  • Why the "Manchester Evening Chronicle" red link?
    • Notable defunct newspaper, thereby satisfying WP:REDLINK. Was sold in 1963 to the group which owned Manchester Evening News and eventually merged with it, but in 1956 the two papers were active competitors so wouldn't be accurate to link to MEN. Struway2 (talk) 09:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is a notable publication, but the small amount of information I have about it would not be sufficient to create a useful stub. I put out a request at WikiProject Greater Manchester a few days ago to see if anyone there has more material. Oldelpaso (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • For a match played over 50 years ago there isn't much about how it's remebered today.

Will try to give this a proper review if I can find the time. BUC (talk) 17:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • The match is principally remembered for Trautmann's injury. Given that this is already mentioned in the lead, and the injury gets two paragraphs in the "match" section and a further paragraph in "post-match", I'm not sure what else there is to add. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Image:Wem.jpg - This image needs a description and a date. Note that the ostensible author/source - User:Gary Watson - is not the uploader, so it is not clear how this image was released into the PD. Did he upload this at Wikipedia? If so, where is the record of that?

Hopefully this is easy to fix. Awadewit (talk) 19:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the deletion history of the image, it *was* uploaded by Gary Watson to the English Wikipedia on November 12, 2005. The transfer to Commons by User:Heimdall was done before the Commonshelper tool was available to automatically add history data to NowCommons images. Fixed. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 22:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The image still needs a description and, if possible, a date. Awadewit (talk) 15:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Have added a brief description. The stadium was demolished in 2003, so "No later than 2003" is the best I can do with the date. Struway2 (talk) 13:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Not too much from me this time.

  • Manchester City: I see "quarter final" and "semi-final" in this section. Note the differing hyphenation.
  • Build-up: West Bromwich Albion was linked in the previous section. Same for Bobby Johnstone.
    • done
  • Check out reference 8. It seems as if a non-breaking space is missing a character.
    • done, thank you for spotting it. Struway2 (talk) 08:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 (17-14) 04:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Looks good. I've made some probably hamfisted edits. Some queries below:

  • "Manchester City captain Roy Paul seizing one last opportunity to stir emotion within the players before the match started". I can guess what you mean, but I think it's better spelled out.
    • I was a little worried about dwelling on the trivial. I've made the sentence more specific as suggested. Oldelpaso (talk) 15:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is 20x 3s 6d?
    • £3 10s. Not sure where you're going with this; I thought it'd be more useful to give a comparison with 1956 earnings. Did you perhaps mean that the footnote give the amounts of money explicitly, rather than just the source of the figure?
      • Yeah, why not? <grins>
  • "Lassie from Lancashire" makes sense, but what's the Brum connection with the other song? Put in a note, not in body text, I suggest.
    • Added a quote to footnote 14 (which sources the mention of Keep Right On in the Route to the final section) which says it's still Birmingham's fans' anthem to this day, and added that footnote to the communal singing sentence.
  • Not essential, but think it's nice context to amend to "Two days before the final, Bert Trautmann who had originally arrived in England as a prisoner of war, was named Footballer of the Year.[31]"
    • Done
  • I'm a little confused as to what is and isn't WP:DASH compliant in the article.
    • There were one or two inconsistent usages in book/webpage/newspaper-article titles in citations, which I've fixed. The rest were OK.

Cheers, --Dweller (talk) 11:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll leave the Roy Paul one for the City half of the editorship. Also, I've undone your change to "scored eighteen goals while conceding only two". MOS:NUM says that "Comparable quantities should be all spelled out or all figures", so as it also allows numbers greater than 9 to be "rendered in words if they are expressed in one or two words", the word "eighteen" is preferable. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ace. I'm content on all your replies. I'll wait until the Paul reply comes in before trying to work out how to hide this stuff. --Dweller (talk) 13:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - some of the refs have authorship shown as (surname), (first name), others as (first name) (surname), I think it would be better to be consistent throughout -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've changed the two (first name) (surname) ones that I found. If I've missed any, please could you point them out, thanks, Struway2 (talk) 11:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Can't see any more, but found a couple of other minor points:
        • "Birmingham won the toss, so Manchester City kicked off" makes it sounds like City were obligated to kick off due to Blues winning the toss, whereas presumably the Blues captain had the choice, suggest a slight reword here
          • Changed to "and Manchester City kicked off" for now; maybe Oldelpaso has info on why Boyd chose ends.
            • My notes are insufficient to glean any further information, from memory the article referenced didn't go into a great deal of detail. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • "over in the Manchester City dressing room" seems a tad colloquial
          • Removed "over"
        • "Sensing an advantage in condition" - I don't understand what this means
          • I assume it means he felt City seemed fitter/more alert/more "up for it", but will leave to my colleague to clarify.
            • That's the implication, but given that the reference doesn't say that explicitly I'll remove the phrase if there's uncertainty. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Think that's it..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now happy to Support - excellent work, chaps! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - An enjoyable article, and ranks among the cleanest articles I've reviewed to date. The other recent FA Cup article that came through FAC was good, but I think this surpasses it, and sets a high standard for similar pages in the future. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it's better than mine ;-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{FAC}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/1956_FA_Cup_Final&oldid=1088824646"