User talk:Zylo1994/Archive 1

Best Damn Thing chart

WP:Record charts contains the guidelines for how chart tables are supposed to be formatted. Read it over, and let me know if you have questions.—Kww(talk) 06:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Honorific nicknames in popular music

Hi, since you added Avril, can you take care of This? Thanks, CTJF83 pride 06:25, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realise! Of course I'll do it now... Zylo1994 (talk) 06:41, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you much! CTJF83 pride 06:43, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, this section already exists! I just swung by to say I hope it's okay I replaced your NME.com reference. I thought the link in the AL article to this Honorific nicknames article was a great idea. I clicked on the NME.com reference and there was no "princess" word anywhere that I could find, so I found three other sources that I thought were a little more notable (not that NME.com isn't); this way there's no doubt in anyone's mind. A keyword search for "pop punk princess" brought up 86 results for Lavigne (there ya go, pretty damned notable) and I think one result was for the singer Pink, but I think lists like the Honorific nickname should prove the nickname is notable and used frequently or in major published biographies or something. So I didn't add Pink. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 18:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

They like an NME ref becuase of it's reputation (see the criteria for inclusion) . This article says "dubbed the princess of pop/punk" which they like even more because it actually states it as her nickname, rather than just call her it for variety. Your refs are great as they back up her Pop Punk Princess nickname but I really, really think the NME source should be re-added as well.Zylo1994 (talk) 19:06, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh I have absolutely no problems with the NME ref. But if I click on the link and I don't see the reference, then I consider it unverifiable. Do re-add it, obviously you don't need my permission. But could you make sure that the URL takes you directly to where the nickname is used? Maybe the article has several pages or something and I couldn't find the "next page" link (or whatever). – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 19:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah neat, thanks for linking the criteria for inclusion, never saw that. I'll double check my own ref contributions. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 19:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay I'm obviously not paying attention. I think I was searching for "pop punk princess" and therefore I didn't see the "princess of pop/punk". My bad! – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 19:15, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

No problem ^_^ Zylo1994 (talk) 19:16, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Should the NME reference be moved before the others then? Like, be the first reference of the four, since NME was specifically listed as being entirely notable by the criteria for inclusion? Just a thought. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 19:22, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

 DoneZylo1994 (talk) 19:26, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Great. Sorry about that again :D – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 20:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Avril

No, I'm not against Avril. Why should I be against her? I just don't like how people think she is punk. I can't stand that! People must know the truth. --Revilal90 (talk) 17:23, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Well like I said, it just seems to me that you may need to focus on keeping a neutral point of view a little more. Nobody is calling her a punk: there's even a section in her article about how she ISN'T a punk! However if there are sources for her music to be called pop punk, then obviously some people consider her pop punk.

Also, just to let you know, most people prefer a discussion to be held on the user talk that it started on. I don't really mind myself but just to let you know. ^_^Zylo1994 (talk) 17:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Genre consensus

Just to help clarify a bit: if you were to disagree with the (current) genre discussion, then consensus won't have been reached because more discussion would be required. (A vote would be 2 in favor of removing pop punk versus 1 in favor of keeping it; so the genre would be removed. But with consensus, it's the strengths of the arguments that are important.) Does that make sense sort of? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 19:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

So basically, it is a vote? Zylo1994 (talk) 19:59, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

lol... it's a vote of persuasions, really, but there are definitely elements of "voting" included. Decisions are made with a debate; each person contributes his or her reasons, but you'll notice that sometimes people don't contribute reasons and merely contribute a "support" or "oppose" on an idea. Sometimes you'll see "strong support" or "strong oppose" as a means of accentuating that person's beliefs. And tallies are kept as to how many yeas or nays there may be in any discussion. But a consensus is reached by discussion, not by how many hands are being held up in support or against. People will read what others have to say, and then they may or may not change their minds. People will strike out an "oppose" and choose to "support" a given topic. So reaching a consensus requires more participation and discussion than a mere vote. However, the word !vote can be used (with the exclamation point) to mean "consensus". It's just a more diplomatic means of achieving an end.

In the Talk:Avril Lavigne example, an IP emphatically declares that "pop punk" is ridiculous. He or she should provide reasons why, which they did, whether it's opinion or, we hope, supported. Then the rest of us step in and exchange a few words as to whether or not they've made a point, and a consensus is eventually reached (and sometimes a consensus isn't reached). A user mentioned that Lavigne played down or denied the punk genre, and I recalled reading that several times in interviews/articles. So I was easily swayed to have the genre removed. You argued one way or another but ultimately decided you would support the decision either way (keep or remove). So consensus is pretty easy to follow there: remove the genre. Now, if another user were to step in and argue against removing the genre, his words would be taken into account; he would have to persuade the majority that it shouldn't be removed. If someone came along and simply wrote "oppose", well, that's not a very strong argument. So someone would ask "Why oppose?" and if no answer were given, then he would be in the minority (much like a regular vote). So think of it as a vote, but with debate and conversation involved. Hope that makes sense! :D – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 20:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

You'll recall that there was consensus reached to limit the genres to only two: pop rock and pop punk. Like ScottMHoward has said before, consensus changes all the time. And so it has. So feel free to remove the genre from the infobox if you want, or we can wait it out a bit longer and see if anyone else has anything to say on the matter. I leave it in your hands lol. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 20:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay I get it now lol. Thanks. Zylo1994 (talk) 07:37, 2 July 2010 (UTC)