User talk:Tony1/Archive14/Archive 14 (7 June – 25 June 2008)

RCC FAC

Further threats and abuse posted here will be removed immediately. TONY (talk) 02:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Tony, per this request on my talk page, I've moved your comment to the FAC talk page. Only a few days after a restart, that page has already passed 200KB (for the fourth time), with complaints that the page won't load, so posting anything not directly related to WP:WIAFA to the talk page might help towards focusing that page on resolving actionable opposes and lowering the personalization of issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

FAC

Ok.--Andrea 93 (msg) 07:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brian Horrocks

I have asked an outside editor to carry out a further copyedit on Brian Horrocks, and I hope it now meets your standards. If you have the time, I'd appreciate it if you could revisit the article and your comments. Leithp 13:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Warren County NY highways FLC

Anything else that needs done? I've solved everything you listed. If you could give the article a lookover and post more, it would help. Thanks!^Mitch32^contribs 14:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:BOLDTITLE

Tony, are you on board with logical and sensible bolded titles being removed from articles per this new interpretation of boldtitle, regarding descriptive titles? Doesn't seem logical or sensible to me. Today's mainpage article: [1] [2] I went around on this with the Roads WikiProject until I gave up; it seems that this is another of those cases where a rewrite of a MOS guideline flew under the radar, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's one thing to say you don't have to bold the title if it can't be done sensibily, but it's another to remove bolded article titles that work and make sense. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I ran into the same issue on the Roads articles; kind of unclear how "descriptive" is being defined on some articles and by whom. Well, if you don't see an easy way to fix it, I guess I'll just put my head in the sand. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I have always been in favour of bolding, unless, of course, it leads to awkward phrasing. Not only does it act as a visual anchor for the lead, but it indicates which are the names by which the subject is most well-known, which are not necessarily given in the title. Plus, it is important to bold names that permanently redirect to the page, quickly showing to the reader why they are redirected to that page.

Now, about that distinction you mention... No idea. Waltham, The Duke of 18:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

RCC FAC

This message is being sent to all opposers of the Roman Catholic Church FAC. Thank you for taking the time to come see the page and give us your comments. I apologize for any drama caused by my imperfect human nature. As specified in WP:FAC, I am required to encourage you to come see the page and decide if your oppose still stands. Ceoil and others have made changes to prose and many edits have been made to address FAC reviewers comments like yours. Thank you. NancyHeise (talk) 23:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Date links

Hi - yes, I'd be happy to participate, though the amount of contiguous time I can spend on organization of arguments, etc., is pretty small. Tempshill (talk) 01:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

I would like to say thanks for your article on FA/MOS changes. Very informative. miranda 16:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

May FAC reviewer award

		The Order of the Superior Scribe of Wikipedia
		To Tony1, For your superior reviews of at least 25 Featured article candidates during May, thank you for being one of the top reviewers this month and for your careful work and thorough reviews of prose to help promote Wiki's finest work. Your footprint is growing as you also work to train others (even though some of us are hopeless :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Special thanks to Ling.Nut—a retired editor who had a strong commitment to excellence in content review—for designing this award, and to Maralia for running the stats for May.

Oh yes, Maralia's an asset. Ling.nut's gone? ... Pity. TONY (talk) 08:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

(butting in) Why retired? --Efe (talk) 09:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Quick WP:CITE question

Tony, just back from hols, recovering. But something that I've tried to enforce but perhaps missed in the WP:MOS, do we mandate citations should be in numerical order anywhere? It's an issue I encounter often but haven't found anything (besides common sense) I can refer to to mandate it? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

"Dogs eat dog food.^[26][35]" certainly looks neater on the page than "Dogs eat dog food.^[35][26]". Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 05:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's mandated anywhere (at least if it is, I've never seen it). I often see people asking for it, and it looks nicer, but it's certainly not required. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok Sandy, that's what I thought, but perhaps it should be mandated? The Rambling Man (talk) 06:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

ah, that's another issue :-) If you're up for having a months-long discussion at WP:CITE over it, help yourself :-))) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

TRM, "recovering" sounds like jetlag, and jetlag sounds like a trip to ... the west coast of North America from the UK.

In this case above, 35 could be the ref that the author thinks is the more important of the two, or the logical one to look at first? If cardinal order is to be mandated, it should be one of those "unless there are good reasons for doing otherwise" ones; that should stop the naysayers at wp;cite in their tracks. I agree with you, generally. TONY (talk) 09:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, this is one of my pet peeves: I would ban consecutive footnotes if I had my way. So I'd want "Dogs eat dog food.^[26]", and in the References section, "[26] For the fact that they are dogs, see X; for the food, see Y." Otherwise, it's inevitably confusing. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 16:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The old FA of the month idea

Tony, see here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Benjamin Franklin Tilley

I may have left you a note here already and if I did, I apologize. I have made corrections as you suggested on the Benjamin Franklin Tilley article. Can you please take a quick look and see if this addresses your concerns? Thanks! JRP (talk) 02:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Brian Horrocks FAC

Hi there. Just letting you know that I got the nominator to ask some people to copyedit this (Since I noticed you, among other editors, had highlighted the prose poor at the FAC). Finetooth (talk · contribs) has now copyedited it. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 06:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Anna May Wong

Another copy-edit has recently been done on this article, and you might want to give it another look. Thanks. Dekkappai (talk) 16:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Please remove your personal attack.

Johnbod (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

From where? I don't recall having made any personal attacks. However, I recall that you've been littering one of my pages with your own gripe. TONY (talk) 01:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

1995 Japanese Grand Prix

Seeing as the FAC failed last, month, could you possibly leave comments on the talkpage about the problems with the article and what needs to be improved. D.M.N. (talk) 17:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Why do you ignore comments on your talkpage? You could at least respond with a simple "Will do when I have time"; "I'll get to it shortly"; instead of ignoring it. In my view, it's pure ignorance to ignore others comments. D.M.N. (talk) 12:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Again... please comment back. I'm not going to bite your head off... all I want is a response. D.M.N. (talk) 13:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It appears that you are going to bite my head off. TONY (talk) 15:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Donald Bradman FAC

Hi Tony. I think the newly-buffed article is ready for FAC. I assume you saw my detailed responses at the (now closed) PR. It was probably one of the most interesting PRs I've worked on; it certainly raised some thorny issues, but I think with my old pal consensus in tow, the result is good. I would like to list it at FAC now, but don't want to be "previous" (as we Cockneys say). I'm sure you can spot some fine detail issues, but do you think broadly it's ready? I wouldn't normally bother you, but it's been such a labour of love for me for so very long, I appreciate my normal FAC antennae may be, erm, wonked. --Dweller (talk) 21:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Emmy Noether

Tony, you had mentioned a problem with overlinking at Emmy Noether; we've since had two run-throughs to eliminate this problem (carried out by myself and LaraLove). You had also mentioned that you planned to check the prose for quality status, having stated that you felt it looked good at first glance. (Wackymacs is weak-opposing because of prose quality issues, but we can't get anything definite from her/him about what's wrong.) Thanks in advance for stopping in when you have a minute. – Scartol • Tok 20:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I need an update here, considering both you and WM are still outstanding ce opposes, and a ce has been done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Out of fear....?

OK, I am trying to think of a way to rephrase this:

Because of its reputation for being venomous and despite protection by the laws of Arizona and Nevada, the Gila Monster is often killed out of fear.

The idea is that is is venomous but very slow, but it was killed out of an (overrated) fear really. The above for me just scans oddly inside my head but I can't think of an alternative...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"Though the Gila monster is venomous, its slowness means that it represents little threat to humans. However, it has earned a fearful reputation, and is often killed by hikers and homeowners, despite the fact that it is protected by state law in Arizona and Nevada." --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Fearsome would be preferable, I think, to fearful; although the two words are used interchangeably to mean both causing fear and being afraid, fearsome is more closely related with being scary. Maybe because it sounds more like fierce? Risker (talk) 23:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"Fearsome" is good. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep. like it. taken/done/used/incorporated etc. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

:) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

(And I should admit I'm absurdly pleased by the hikers/homeowners alliteration. Oh, small pleasures...) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

fearsome?...awesome.... :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• This all happened while I was snoring. Well done, folks. TONY (talk) 04:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

RC + FAC

Hi Tony. What's your take on the WP:SIZE issue? --Dweller (talk) 12:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I was under the misapprehension that it was well over 100K and hammered it for it. Having checked, I find it's c.75K. I still think that's quite a bit too much. Evidence: it's crashed my browser once. At the FAC, I've suggested the history section is too long. The authors seem to think not a jot can be moved to daughter articles without falling foul of comprehensiveness. I doubt that, but have not enough expertise in the topic to suggest what could be pruned. At least it doesn't seem to be suffering recentism! All in all, I've toned down from a strong object (on this issue) to a persuadable object. I was curious which way you might influence my thinking. --Dweller (talk) 13:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Sorry, the section heading may be a little vague! Roman Catholic church. NB seen my input at Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria? --Dweller (talk) 13:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

RCC Cabal

"75.127.78.190, the anon above: is that you, Lwnf? It shows the same casual indifference to apostrophes as you do. If it's not you, I wonder whether it's another of the RCC cabal whose nose is out of joint .."

Har dee har harr. But no, I sign all of my posts, and if I forget (and notice) I go back and add the signature. The cabal comment is fair. I, and I assume the others, get very defensive about representations of our religion which are inaccurate or biased, so the criticism sets us in particularly bad mood. I first got the vibe that you were pounding on the article out of inherent dislike for it. It was about a day later that I found out that you are (at the insinuation of others) some kind of "prose master," and that you do that to all of the FA noms. I want to apologize for what I said about you, and say that I don't hold any kind of grudge or ill feelings toward you.

What do you mean by "casual indifference to apostrophes?" It is rare that I screw up their use in either contractions or possessives. I have been told that their use is "frowned upon" in formal writing, but I have never been given an explanation that I felt was satisfactory, particularly in regard to the possessive. Do you have an explanation about avoidance of the possessive that is coherent and argumentatively solid? Lwnf360 (talk) 05:20, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

And this may sound snarky, but it's not really meant to be: if you want further grammar advice, can I suggest you work on your relative pronouns, and in the meantime remove the corresponding userbox on your userpage? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 05:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I have no idea where you get the notion that possessives are to be shunned in formal writing; contractions, of course, are another matter entirely.

For what it's worth, I'd be happy if someone went through every article on Wikipedia and systematically changed all instances of the clumsy "the X of the Y" formulation, to the far more readable "Y's X." I'm endlessly having to fix this. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 05:48, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I presume that by "casual indifference to apostrophes," Tony was referring first to the one missing in the phrase "this editors 'preferences'" and, second, to the similar lack in the phrase "its totally the latter." HTH. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 05:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comments, JBM. Yes, "its" and "editors" were my referents. And, Lwnf, I don't usually pick at people's talk-page comments like that, but I did feel you'd taken a negative stance. As for supernatural religion, you'll see on my talk-page that I more than dislike it—I think it's one of the greatest con-jobs ever perpetrated on humanity. I'm sorry to see that you've been sucked in, Lwnf; that's purely a personal feeling, of course, not an attack on you. But I announced in the previous FAC for RCC that my attitudes to supernatural religion have nothing to do with my reviews: WP needs a good article on RCC, since the institution is central to understanding some of our history and current geopolitics. My concern is that we get the angle right, so that WP is describing at an objective distance; that's hard when the writers are passionately part of the topic. TONY (talk) 06:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

  An idle question, Tony... Do you distinguish between supernatural religions and other forms? ;) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 10:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Monthly updates

Maybe you can add WP:LAYOUT to your monthly updates, or just start following Dank55 around to see what he's up to, because another important change flew under the radar until it popped up on a FAR. Wikipedia talk:Layout#Portals in See also. In fact, it appears he rewrote a lot of that page in May. Any chance you can get him to keep your Update page apprised when he rewrites MoS pages? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, Sandy, you've got my interest. I take it you'd rather Tony deal with this, which works for me, I trust him. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 13:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Tony, I have to finish my review of mechanical engineering this morning, then I can get to the archiving you wanted. I continue to have some RL stress, but I can get things done around here. Sandy obviously has some concerns about me. Whatever you want me to do more or less of, let me know. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 13:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Dan, not at all: I think we all appreciate your input. Sandy's asking me to include the changes to the Layout guidelines in the monthly update. I think I did look at the diff, but decided the changes were either not significant enough to include (or perhaps I didn't understand them). Can you point me to the bits you think are substantive? No hurry; RL is more important. I can even include these as an addendum next month if you can't manage soon. TONY (talk) 14:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Not concerns, Dan; just that I thought we had a means of helping people (like me :-) keep up with MoS, yet this didn't make it into the Monthly updates. It's a regular item of review at FAC and FAR. I'm pressing for better updates to the updates by the "MoS regulars", since I've come to depend on the Monthly Update. (And I don't like to look stupid when asking for a change at FAC or FAR that has disappeared from MoS with no discussion, and this keeps happening :-) I'm sorry about the RL stress; I hope it is resolved soon for the best. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 16:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

How's this? TONY (talk) 16:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. Can you see any path to increased stability on the MoS pages? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:32, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I put some other changes at WP:LAYOUT between Apr 1 and now on my talk page. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 18:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: increased stability, on the pages I patrol, just listening and responding to what the Young Turks are saying works most of the time (and sometimes improves the page), and sometimes I make the argument for increased stability. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 18:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Late addition: PBS just inserted "normally" into "external links are normally limited to the "External links" section" at WP:LAYOUT. Too soon to see if it will "take". - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 23:32, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to object, because I have seen (a very few) cases I didn't object to; rare, but done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, so if it survives until I take the monthly "snapshot", the place to notify is here. TONY (talk) 02:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

request for comment

Hello. I would appreciate your comments here and here. Thank you. Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Logical quotation

Hi, Tony. Does the final fullstop here belong before or after the quotation mark?

The president remarked, "This is pilot error. It's unbelievable that somebody would do this. The guy must have had a heart attack."

Many thanks. Epbr123 (talk) 22:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Where a single quote includes internal full-stops, I'm more likely to assume that the last portion of text is actually a complete sentence in the original; in that case, the example above is correct, and we just put up with the fact that the higher-level WP sentence in which the quote is embedded loses its own full-stop (two jostling full-stops, even separated by the closing quotation-marks, would be worse). TONY (talk) 02:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Translation? (Since Epbr123 was working on logical puncs in an article for me.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is where the application of "logical" punctuation varies. My personal preference is to retain the full-stop outside the final quotation-marks unless you really need to show that the final portion of text (The guy must have had a heart attack) is a complete sentence, ending in a full-stop in the original. It would be unusual to need to do that—in fact, I can't imagine where. However, strictly speaking, the way MOS is currently worded allows either the example above or this:

The president remarked, "This is pilot error. It's unbelievable that somebody would do this. The guy must have had a heart attack".

I do regard it as more important for the reader to see WP's (higher-level) sentence in proper formatting; that is, starting with a capital letter and finishing with a full-stop. I guess I'd be happier if MOS laid that down as a rule, such that the default is the "outside" full-stop unless it's important to show that the original ended in a full-stop; after all, if the original didn't end in a full-stop, and the quotation therefore stops mid-sentence, you'd expect ellipsis dots, like this:

The president remarked, "This is pilot error. It's unbelievable that somebody would do this. The guy must have had a heart attack ...".

So in the absense of ellipsis dots, you'd expect a full stop in the original: that is my preference. But there's been so much bad blood about this issue, particularly from North Americans, that I just don't have the energy to raise it again. The ellipsis section of MOS remains messy, and Noetica never got to it before he stomped out of MOS in disgust at ... I won't say who. SMcCandlish is also good on these matters, but where is he? The guidelines on final punctuation and closing parentheses needs to be looked at in relation to this as well.

I just don't dare raise it, for fear that we'll end up having to accept internal punctuation as a default. TONY (talk) 03:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

I changed WT:FLC to archive after 10 days inactivity per discussion on that page, and I changed WT:Featured List Criteria to 20 days per your request. WT:MOSNUM looks like it's done already. Have you had any problems with the archiving at WT:MOSNUM? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 03:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Dan, thanks so much! I don't watchlist MESSNUM any more, since it's been taken over by an extremely aggressive cabal that I find discourages collaborative discussion on anything but their own terms. TONY (talk) 03:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

FA-Team Mission 4

Mission 4, a series of articles on the Everglades, could do with help from the FA-Team! Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 13:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Singular or plural? (aka I may have goofed...)

OK, here's an interesting one - normally the convention is to make species etc. in biological articles singular. However Ant I guess is a special case as it is talking about the family of all different ant species. I copyedited para 2 of the lead on colonies and made it singular as I felt a unified entity. sounded funny as a plural. However, now it is sinular and the rest of the 3 paras in the lead are plural. Do you reckon the colony para flows better as singular or plural? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

No, no - this one:

The highly organised colony may consist of millions of ants; these are mostly sterile females ("workers", "soldiers", and other castes), with some fertile males ("drones"), and one or more fertile females ("queens"). Able to occupy and use a wide area of land to support itself, the ant colony is sometimes described as a superorganism as it appears to operate as a unified entity.

Would you have 'colony' as singualr or plural throughout text? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, back to plural then..Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring other users

Tony, I'm starting to get a little annoyed that you are constantly ignoring my comments above about the 1995 Japanese Grand Prix article. If you continue not to respond, I will be filing a WikiQuette alert against you. Please also see this discussion at ANI. If you wish to comment, please do so at the ANI discussion. Regards, D.M.N. (talk) 15:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me get this straight, you are ordering Tony to respond to a favour? That is what you are asking, a favour. There is no demand, reason or otherwise that says Tony must review any article that you ask him to. If he had time, I am sure he would have considered your request. As it is, bringing it up on ANI isn't really conducive to a collegiate atmosphere now is it. Woody (talk) 15:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm under quite enough pressure to review as many active FACs and FLCs as possible, so often I don't respond to requests to review articles that aren't even nominations. I suppose the original request was buried by subsequent postings and I just hadn't got around to it.

Treat me like a servant, please, DMN. It's gratis, too; no invoice. TONY (talk) 15:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not treating you like a servant. All I wanted was a response, two words or two paragraphs. Everyone in my view deserves a response, not to have their comment ignored. Tony, most of your reviews anyway are along the lines are need a copy-edit, without actually directing the nominees to the problems of the article. D.M.N. (talk) 15:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

D.M.N., Tony is under no obligation to review any article; you might consult WP:PRV to locate someone interesting in copyediting and reviewing your article. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

OK. Tony, it's pretty clear that we do not see eye to eye, I'd like to offer an olive branch and resolve our differences. I apologise for any incivility and wrongdoing and my behalf and I hope we can get over this in the future. Would you be happy to apologise for any wrongdoing on your behalf so we can get over this dispute? Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 16:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm very pleased to see that your sudden retirement has turned into a wikibreak. I can't apologise, because I've done nothing wrong. When you've finished your break and are working again on the article, ask me and I'll have a quick look at it. Do take that break; we all get a little frazzled from time to time. TONY (talk) 02:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thriller Peer Review

Hi there, I have just put the Thriller (album) up for peer review. It didnt pass its last FA and this will be its third PR since that failer. Im award you have a great command of the English language (I have come across you before) so I would appreciate it if you could add any points you see noteworthy. Feel free to bloody the article as much as possible, best to get it out of the way now. Thankyou for your time. — Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 19:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

As for my request, I can see your under enough pressure as it is, feel free to disregard it and Im sorry if I've only made things worse. There are plently of other people who can look over it dont worry. Im cetainly not demanding that you look at it, hell, despite what some might think Im not a complete bitch. Have a good, day, evening or night (I can never remember how the clocks work where you live) :-) — Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 02:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Feature Article Candidate Roman Catholic Church

The nomination of the above article was archived by the Featured Articles Director, with the comment that the page had again grown too long. He has asked that all remaining objectors produce a list of their specific problems with the article in its current form. These will then be addressed by the article's editorial team before re-presentation for FA status.

Can you therefore please post a complete list of any specific remaining objections you may have on the article's talk page at: Talk:Roman_Catholic_Church. If possible can we have this list in by the end of June, so that editors can begin to address them all in detail in July. To prevent the nomination again becoming over-long, we would ask that you raise ALL of your remaining concerns at this stage, making your comments as specific and comprehensive as possible. It would help if all your comments were gathered under your name in a single heading on the page. Thank you. Xandar (talk) 01:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Brian Horrocks

Hi Tony:

Would you mind very much taking another look at the Brian Horrocks FAC please to see whether your copy concerns have been addressed? Thanks in advance, --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 06:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

{PS: Don't you wish that more people understood the difference between copy-tasting and copy-editing? :) --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 06:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC))

Roman Catholic Church

Hi Tony. I still think the article needs a proper peer review, with comments from at least 10 editors (not hard to do). It'll save a lot of havoc on the next FAC. Thoughts? — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

List of redundant expressions

Now here's an interesting article currently being debated at AfD. I thought you may have an opinion on it one way or the other, and would know if sourcing existed. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Done; thanks! TONY (talk) 13:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

aaargh, you weren't supposed to vote like that after I canvassed you and everything ?! just kidding. my house is pretty cluttered to - I keep all sorts of odds and ends...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Not at all; I was glad to be apprised of its existence. It's kinda down my alley, isn't it. TONY (talk) 14:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen your new-found fame - immortalised in an AfD response? --Dweller (talk) 12:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Donald Bradman improvements

Your comments have provoked a number of changes and some ongoing debate, notably at WT:CRIC. We're not done yet, but thanks to you the article's already much improved, so thank you. --Dweller (talk) 10:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating how the conversation's gone at Talk:Donald Bradman. Quite unexpected. I hadn't expected so much support for the "puffery" argument to come from WP:CRIC; that's the value of inviting experts to contribute to consensus discussions! I guess I won't be listing at FAC today, but there's still plenty of time before DB's 100th birthday to get the article passed and onto Main Page. --Dweller (talk) 14:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

All done, I think. These improvements are largely down to your prompting, so thank you again. --Dweller (talk) 13:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

dates, years and wikilinks

Hi Tony. I thought you might wish to comment here. Thunderbird2 (talk) 13:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Rongorongo

Your edit summary says "Moving to support"; did you intend to Support? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, Tony, can you revisit your comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ant? It must be the moon (or summer vacation in the Northern hemisphere?), but I'm herding cats lately at FAC, with a lot of reviews having issues that both nominators and reviewers don't seem to be following up and responding to. I cleaned up the sources myself at Ant, but it's unclear from various comments if prose passes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:Layout

No one has argued with the most recent change at WP:LAYOUT (the addition of "normally"), and Sandy is okay with it too. I added it to my list of changes to WP:LAYOUT at User_talk:Dank55#message from Sandy; feel free to appropriate any or all of those for your monthly update. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 20:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

dash

Thanks for the explanation. I tried to incorporate it in the article and removed the tag. The formulation might be put more clearly or more concise. Tomeasy_talk 22:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

List of tallest buildings in Atlanta

Tony, when you have time, could you revisit the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of tallest buildings in Atlanta? I attempted to address some of your concerns, but just need some more clarification on some points before I can get to the rest. Thanks and cheers, Rai•me 02:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Talyllyn Railway

Many thanks for your comments on this article. Could I ask you to elaborate on your comment that the left hand side images are "messy" please? In what way? The reason I ask is that they were all on the right hand side, but a previous reviewer suggested moving some over to the left. As far as I can tell, all but one of the images met the requirements of MOS:IMAGES, and I've adjusted the final one accordingly. If there's still any other problems, please let me know. Thanks again. —  Tivedshambo  _(t/c) 13:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: FAC declarations

Thanks for telling that. Next time I vote I will be more critical. It is the first time I vote, and I am used to voting in the Portuguese Wikipedia, where you don't have to be that critical. Again thanks. Idontknow610^TM 13:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Revisit

Tony, can you please revisit Eric Brewer (ice hockey)? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Opening sentence in lists

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Opening sentence in lists. I thought maybe you'd want to comment as you initially mentioned it at WT:FLC a few months ago, and it's still happening. Argh! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 07:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey Tony Tiger

I think it's time you made my life hell again. :-) C'mon. I can take it. --Dweller (talk) 12:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As opposed to Tony the Tiger, a quite different person. I don't think I can supply a savaging in this case; the article is pretty good. But I'm tainted because I participated before nomination. I'll be along soon. TONY (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe Tony the Tiger and Winnie the Pooh had a mutual ancestor they were both named after. Sadly, Rupert Bear grew up and discontinued the family usage, which is sad. Remarkably, a host of the most notable kings/queens/emperors also share the same lineage, as long ago as Alexander the Great and as recently as Catherine the Great (clearly, they shared more than one ancestral line, having the same surname to-boot). It is further believed that the members of The the are the products of co-sanguinal relationships and it is remarkable that they survived childhood, particularly when the Romanov propensity to haemophilia is borne in mind.

Tainted comments welcome at the FAC, too. --Dweller (talk) 14:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Great stuff in the article. NB you seem to have "improved" a quote along the way! --Dweller (talk) 16:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the support and I've responded to your comments. I think the quote should go back to its original text. With the greatest of respect <doffs hat> I'll do a partial revert. --Dweller (talk) 11:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a glance

I know that you don't review articles that are not candidates for promotion to featured status. However, I hope 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra a former FAC will be lucky enough to have a comment or two, from this esteemed reviewer? KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk) 16:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely right… so what do you think I should do… to make it NPOV? KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk) 14:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

You need wider input, probably from people in India who are not affiliated with any of the parties, but who know the context. TONY (talk) 15:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: JS Bach recording

See my reply at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach #JS Bach recording. Graham87 01:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hat in hand (aka begging)

Tony, Wikipedia:FCDW/June 23, 2008 gets published at the end of this week and really needs a thorough check. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Bolding

Please read the texts you revert; it is:

This list contains the largest settlements of the United Kingdom, ordered by population, according to [sources]...

I changed my mind as to whether list should also be bolded; if anybody wants to change that single word, fine; it's a borderline case. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The same problem as the Duke of Walton has: lists, like other articles, should begin by stating their subject; your text didn't. By convention, we do that in bold, as was long since agreed; we don't have to state the subject exactly as in done in the title (and most articles with titles more complex than Blue Iguana don't).

If you've read so many lists that our conventions are beginning to pall, you are no longer approaching them as our readers would, and should consider taking a break. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Manderson, why don't YOU take a break: a VERY LONG one. How dare you. TONY (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what's behind this discussion having only just come across it because your talkpage is on my watchlist, but telling someone via an edit summary to "piss off" is quite uncivil. Please try and keep calm. Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 16:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you mind your own business, DMN. You're not welcome here. TONY (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes you should remain civil Tony, I think you should apologise to PMAnderson. Fnagaton 16:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

You're the sock-genius, aren't you. I suggest that you stay right off my page. You're a disgrace to the proceedings at MOSNUM, and have damaged the culture there in your dishonest actions. Now telling me to be civil is a bit rich. You are not welcome on my page. Do not post here again. TONY (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I've never used any socks and I must remind you that user talk pages are not to be used to misrepresent other editors. I also note your untrue accusation of dishonesty and I again remind you to be civil. Fnagaton 16:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Tony, I'm only saying an opinion that me and a few other editors have. Telling some to piss off is uncivil. Accusing someone of a sock could also be seen as uncivil. D.M.N. (talk) 16:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't care what your opinions are; I thought that was plain to see. If Fnagaton didn't dishonestly create a sock during last month's MOSNUM mayhem to gain advantage in his aggressive, destructive tactics, he's not yet denied it when accused—by a number of people, I believe. Now, take heed of my warning that you are not welcome here. Read the words carefullly. TONY (talk) 17:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, reading above: well, this must be the first denail. But a forensic analysis of the language of DavidPaulHamilton showed suspicious similarities with that of Fnagaton. And that matched the compelling circumstantial evidence, timing, and motive. I'll believe his denial, but thousands wouldn't. TONY (talk) 17:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course I denied it, don't try to claim something that isn't true. Again I note your untrue accusations and misrepresentation so I again remind you to be civil. You should retract what you have written and apologise to PMAnderson, D.M.N. and also to me. Fnagaton 17:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see that you had denied it; I'm not sure that people believe the denial. I want an apology from you, and Anderson, and DMN, forthwith. TONY (talk) 17:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

No, you're the person who needs to make the apology to all three of us for your uncivil remarks and misrepresentation. Fnagaton 17:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Wrong: the apology should be from you to me. From hereon, I will remove any postings from Fnag or DMN immediately, unless they're apologies. TONY (talk) 17:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Unless I'm wrong, telling someone to "piss off" is an insult, and a personal attack. D.M.N. (talk) 17:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Tony I again note your uncivil comments and looking at your edit history comments (where you make several attacks and untrue accusations) I must also remind you that to use comments as a means to attack another editor is also frowned upon. Fnagaton 17:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Degree symbol

You said on WT:MOS that the degree symbol takes two key-presses. Which keys are these? I have a US keyboard. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 16:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

On a Mac keyboard, it's option-0 (i.e., zero). On a Windows there's an equivalent (Cntrl–0?). Or it's below the edit-box. TONY (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)