Thebuffguy

Megadeth album sales

Please stop replacing the RIAA sales certification reference. As they are the ones who award sales certifications, they would know. Band claims should be disregarded.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 23:07, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The page is the best source? I don't dispute that it is a good source for a lot of information (band lineup history, a basic guide to their discography, and even "The Scorpion" Q&A section has its moments), but they can ultimately claim whatever they want there - they run the page. Mustaine could put his claim about his supposed authorship of Metallica's "Leper Messiah" there if he wanted to. That doesn't make it a fact. That makes it a claim (likewise, Metallica's claim that he didn't is also just a claim, albeit the more recognized one). Same goes for the band's "Cyber army"/chat room, which I believe I also saw you cite before. Additionally, the "Cyber army" is not available to the public to verify information.

Seeing as certifications are granted by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), I would say that they are the most authoritative source. The source currently there is from the RIAA website, so I am sticking with that one. As far as Megadeth's facebook? The admins... whatever. I have no time for band-affiliated sources as far as claims like record sales and certifications goes. After all... admins on those sites don't get promoted for not being completely loyal to the band. If you DO find a more authoritative source (preferably RIAA, but I would consider others, if they seem credible, stating that CW is platinum, and Risk is gold, or updated album sales, then we can talk. I'm sorry, but band-affiliated sources just don't cut it. One thing that you should keep in mind on here is Verifiability, not truth.

Taking info from wikipedia? Wikipedia is not supposed to cite itself for information. This is not an authoritative source, it relies on secondary sources to provide reliable information, in theory at least. Furthermore, I can post a youtube video claiming that the band has sold 60 or 70 million records, or that Countdown to Extinction has sold as many copies as Metallica's Black album - that does not make it true.

With all due respect, I have no mistakes to correct. Any mistakes I do find WILL be reverted.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 16:22, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

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Well, there are several sources online that state otherwise that Cryptic writings DID IN FACT go platinum. That reference there is one I found in about 30 seconds of looking, but I'm sure I could find more if I tried. CW is in fact, a platinum album. The RIAA must've left that part out in their records, and honestly, I wouldn't put that level of ignorance past them. The RIAA isn't god, it has been proven wrong before. Take Metallica's Black Album. It has gone 16x platinum, yet the RIAA has it at 15x platinum here, and 16x platinum on one of their other pages. A minor mistake, but a mistake nonethelss. This inconsistency is partially why I never credit them unless their postings are consistant with other reliable sources, and all the information co-exists and is the same.

As for Risk, it did in fact go gold. Watch the part at 1:08:20 onward and see for yourself. That's not coming from Mustaine, that's coming from the narrator/writers who, albeit gets some of his/their information from the band, still use credible sources in their research for the documentary. The RIAA website is about as credible towards the band as an actual documentary would be, therefore using this video in this instance is just as legit as you using the RIAA.

Finally, as for the 50 million albums sold mark, here is a video by WatchMojo, a credible source of information that has always been reliable in their "comparison" or "top 10" videos. Granted, the ending results of their videos are almost always their opinion, generally. But they're a professional group of people that hold credibility with close to 200'000 subscribers on YouTube. Their information is almost ALWAYS spot on. Watch from the 5:58 mark to about the 6:03 mark.

You say that band affiliated sources just don't cut it, yet you proceed to use the band's facebook as a source? That's a bit of a contradiction. The band themselves post there from time to time, and the admins run the page for them, do their tour updates, etc. They took the 38 million number DIRECTLY FROM Wikipedia. That's how credible your source is. In other words, they cited wikipedia, which then you, yourself, proceeded to use as a credible link to their sales. You also just said that you can't cite wikipedia as a reference on wikipedia, yet that's almost exactly what you did here. My source is a less band-affiliated source, and they state something different. And until it is physically proven otherwise, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my source is flawed (which at this point it is not), then it shall remain. Until then, please stop removing my posts.

I was counting on you replying on my page, so, i completely missed this...

In any case, your sources:

• [1] this is a user review (as opposed to a professional review), and is thus, quite frankly, BS. I'll take Blabbermouth, BW&BK or Loudwire instead. In any case, RIAA says gold, and that is verifiable, even if not the truth.

Whether or not they are god is beside the point. The point is that they issue certifications, not the band, not heavymetalnow.com. As for Youtube videos, I'm sorry, but I'm not even going to bother. Anyone can post a video to youtube about ANYTHING.

As for watchMojo.com, the site looks legit. While I am not wasting my time watching all means of videos, i would wonder where they got their information from. For all I know, it might be the band, maybe the RIAA, or hell, they might have gotten it from this very site in the past. That said, I plead ignorance as to the source of 38 million, I did not put it there. I just try to prevent what i see as additional incorrect edits. I hardly have time to go digging to solve every problem in this mess of an article. If you want to remove the citation and put a "[citation needed]" tag or "[questionable source]" tag there yourself, i would encourage you to do so (and would not undo that, so long as it was not int he same edit as the CW & risk thing.

I have another question for you, too (and if this was NOT you, I apologize, there were a lot of conflicting and confusing edits by several editors recently that I have been dealing with over several pages) but why did you sometimes put that United Abominations and Endgame were certified gold, too? they're lucky if they have shipped a quarter million a piece since release, let alone half a million.

--L1A1 FAL (talk) 02:35, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to keep this friendly debate between us, really. I'm not worried about someone varifying that you're correct and I'm not, or the reverse. I just like to keep these discussions semi-private. What I'm about to say may sound offensive, but please don't take it that way.

I don't get it, you're not willing to dig deep to find facts, yet you completely disregard the facts I'm giving here, no matter how deep I manage to dig? Is it that you have a grudge against Megadeth and just can't seem to bare the thought that they're more successful than another band you focus on greatly? That being Slayer, as I see you monitor their page quite thoroughly. Since there's no doubt that Megadeth is more successful than Slayer, maybe that makes it a little harder for you to accept the facts given? I can understand that. It took me forever to admit to myself that Metallica has sold a lot more than Megadeth. To this day, even. I'm in my mid-30's and I still have a hard time admitting it.

Moving on, I did post that United and Endgame were gold because I remembered seeing that on Mustaine's facebook page when he made a status, in hopes that someone would varify this as true, although I admit I should've added a "Citatation needed". I've since refrained from adding that to this page, as that information is as good as false, considering no one has had any luck finding that facebook status update on Mustaine's page, and it's not stated anywhere that either album has gone gold. Although I must say, by April of 2010, Endgame alone had shipped over 150'000 copies in the US. It's now April of 2013, I think it's definitley a possibility that Endgame has shipped over half a million by now. That is quite a popular and well received album. I can't say anything about UA, however. I know it sold well and was well received, but I believe if either album was going to go Gold, Endgame would definitely be first.

I understand that you don't have the time to view videos on youtube as valid proof of one thing or another, but you seem to have the time to continue editing this page, so why not give those videos a shot? It's only a few second clips each. I even gave you the exact times at which the statements were made during the video, so it's really hard to argue that you "don't have the time". The information is there, whether you've viewed it or not. Documentaries are and always have been a valid form of information. For example, they use educational documentaries as a form of teaching in the school systems we have today. If you think WatchMojo is legit, surely you'd find a documentary to be at least a competant form of information... I would hope so, at least. As you said about the RIAA site, it is Varifiable, if not true. So it should at least hold some credibility. And when it comes to two numbers, one being bigger than the other, when trying to support a fact, I always go with the number that seems the most likely. With how well Megadeth has done in the past, and how well they're doing these days (despite their slight lack of popularity from the years 2001 to about 2008), it completely makes sense that Risk would go Gold, and Cryptic Writings platinum.

As for the 50 million albums sold worldwide, how is that even up for debate? It's Megadeth, they're easily one of the most popular bands in existance, they sell concert tickets like no tomorrow, can fill up amphitheaters holding 20'000 plus people without a hitch, etc. I've seen them live, I was present at the "That One Night" shoot. Over 50'000 people were present, people from all over the world. And that was back in 2005. Megadeth was at it's lowest point back then, as they had just come out of Hiatus a year prior. 50 million seems like the exact number you'd expect to hear when you ask how many records they've sold. It's about half as much as Metallica. Seems legit, as Megadeth is about half as popular as Metallica. It's just nice to see a credible source such as WatchMojo hold those numbers out for the public. I suggest if nothing else, you let that 50 million number slide. And then eventually, hopefully, you'll come to an understanding that I'm not just blowing smoke about CW and Risk, either. It's all legit info. No need to change it. Plus, it makes the band look good. Can't argue with anything here.

I'm getting kinda tired of the debate now. How about a compromise? As per your suggestion, change the total sales to 50 million (with the source you used), but let's leave the CW and Risk certifications out of it (and keep the RIAA ref). I'm fine with that if you are.

By the way, I am actually busy in real life, and I just don't have the time to do research everything I would like to. Maybe I'll check out the certification issue in more detail at some point in the future, but it's not a very high priority for me at the moment.

As for Endgame and UA, I thought a little more on that... I think I remember seeing that they went gold in Canada (possibly?) I think "Gold" is 30,000 units shipped there, but don't quote me on that exact figure. All I know about US sales though, except for the biggest acts (say, Metallica for example) albums generally drop off in sales after the second week, cause all the fans went and bought it in that timeframe. Not like a band like Megadeth has extensive radio support or anything, so there's nothing to really push further mass sales after the first few months at most. I certainly can't say I'm going to be buying either album any time soon - I bought them both on the first day. As far as I can remember, the last sales for Endgame that I saw were around 150,000 back in 2011 or so.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, I will accept the compromise you've suggested. Hopefully you do decide to look further into the Risk/CW thing, but I understand life is busy. I myself have a wife, and a child along the way, so I'd be the first to say I know what you mean.

I live in Canada, and Endgame did go gold for the CRIA as it's shipped between 30-50 thousand copies here (which you were correct about, however there is no exact figure for the Gold rating, it depends on the amount of time they sell and demand of the product shipment. Normally the rating is achieved between 30-50'000 units). But since the discussion we've been having was about the RIAA and units sold in America, I wanted to focus on that. I have no knowledge as to whether or not UA did go gold or not, but odds are it did. I too bought the albums on the day of release, I have 3 copies of each Megadeth CD to date, in fact.

Was a good debate, though. I wish you luck in your future endeavours.