Stanzsd

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December 2017

Hello, I'm Jim1138. I noticed that in this edit to William Trickett Smith, you removed content without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry, the removed content has been restored. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Jim1138 (talk) 09:03, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Please use the talk page

Please discuss this on talk:William Trickett Smith. See help:talk pages and wp:talk page guidelines. Include wp:reliable sources if needed to support your points. When editing the article, you should add an wp:edit summary and can include "see talk page" if necessary. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 19:05, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

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Suitability of "apparent suicide" claim in Dieter Brummer's article

@Stanzsd: Hello. To save on triggering an edit war, I want to try and get this resolved. The citation given that supports that his death was by suicide is the only one on Google that suggests so. I've taken a look at the source given, and it mentions "suicide" in the title only. Not one mention of it otherwise anywhere else in the article, therefore it falls into the territory of clickbait, and could trigger a failure of verification. It's also not suitable to suggest to reach out to who you believe is his sister on Facebook as you've not provided any sort of verifiability that the given name/profile is who you say it is, also given there's more than 1 profile that goes by that name (so how are we to know we contacted the correct one?), and any sort of suggestion to reach out to any "Karlene Bee" on Facebook given the circumstances could be akin to stalking or at least unsolicited contact from people who are not journalists or suitable authority by profession, unless she herself has a public post about it. So, please explain why you consider it suitable to leave the mention of "apparent suicide" when there's no other sources supporting this? Doing so can also fall foul of WP:NOTNEWSPAPER and MOS:ALLEGED. Overall I apologise if this comes across as blunt, but I feel caution needs to be tread, especially given lack of backup verification and dubious source usage. Regards -- Tytrox (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Unfortunately, it was definitely suicide (at his parents home while they were away), as confirmed to me by his family. Additionally, the article cited does state suicide, and the conclusion of almost every article regarding Mr. Brummer's death, there is the Lifeline message (and, at times, the suicide call back line and beyond blue number) (at the end of the announcement of Mr. Brummer's death the family themselves wrote: "Should you, or anyone you know be affected by this, or indeed are feeling pain at this time, there are good people that you can talk to. Please pick up the phone – Lifeline 13 11 14."). Why would every article on Mr. Brummer's death have these messages, if it were not suicide? For these reasons, and from the fact that his family have no problems with his death being known to be due to a suicide, I believe it is appropriate to have it marked as a suicide. I don't think any source in the immediate future (except for the ones I cited) is going to flat out say the word "suicide", since using the word is thought to have the potential to encourage others (however I know mindframe.org do not specify this). If you, or somebody else, wants to delete the "apparent suicide" that is OK. I won't object. But I can guarantee you it was a suicide. This is definitely his sister's profile-- https://www.facebook.com/karlene.brummer.3

@Stanzsd: Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your effort and understand your well-intent, unfortunately Wikipedia does not work that way. Saying you had his family confirm to you is not a recognised form of verifiability by Wikipedia. Wikipedia cannot "take your word for it", so it falls into verifiability failure and notability territory. This is why there's policies behind necessity for secondary sources and avoiding original research/investigations etc. Regarding media outlets footing details of lifeline etc, that's just a format that media adopted. It doesn't outright confirm a death by suicide, especially since those that say "suicide" at the moment are all only saying "alleged/apparent"... and again only those owned by News/Murdoch are saying this. As for the FB link to his sister's profile, though it looks it's the correct one, again it could breach privacy issues, especially given we're not journalists or recognised authority that can make unsolicited contact with her. Unless she makes a public statement or gives a public means of contact, it's not suitable to identify her personal social media profiles. Overall I'm not dismissing everything you're saying as false, it's just Wikipedia has requirements of what is published and how. Regards, -- Tytrox (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I spoke to one of his family members and friends today; I was told his mother is writing a book on Dieter's life, and has no problems with people knowing Dieter died from suicide. I was told she has already talked about this to journalists, although i couldn't find anything published yet... But I am sure there will be confirmation soon. Dieter was known as "Peter Abbit" on facebook, and his friends Paul Chivers and Chris Cooper are happy to discuss their relationships with him.

Hi @Stanzsd:, I noticed you've linked the recent article about his mother wanting to speak about his death. Thanks for finding and contributing that. That being said, the "want" from his family was never the issue (aside from Wikipedia being unable to "take your word for it"), it was to do with reliably sourcing publicly accessible news that doesn't come across as gossip, and from reliable sources. Overall it's settled now. -- Tytrox (talk) 16:01, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Tytrox, no problem for the link, and I understand what you are saying re: Links, and we have to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia. I am glad there was finally a good one! All the best to you Stanzsd 04:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

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