User talk:Rugbyfan22/Archive 14

Squad lists

Hey @Rugbyfan22, just wondering why you reverted the edit that I made to keep the squad list of Moana Pasifika alphabetical - as it should be. I'm referring to Jonah Mau'u. Squad lists are not chronological. Later additions are reflected in the footnote and in the article with the list of 2022–23 Super Rugby transfers. Can you, please, undo your revert? Now, it just looks messy.

I also wonder why you made changes to the footnote re: John Ulugia's addition to the Brumbies squad list and on the list of 2022–23 Super Rugby transfers (Australia). It was good the way it was; both the word "replacement" (consistent with language just previously) and the source in the footnote were absolutely fine.

I'm sorry, I really appreciate all the work you do on Wiki, but some of your edits come across as pedantic and are slightly annoying. We are all trying our best to make these pages as good as they can be, but this type of edits is what could stop people from making edits at all. Ruggalicious (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi, the majority of these edits have just been for consistency with previous seasons. Super Rugby squad lists have been listed with the main squad, and then short-term and development squad players listed thereafter to distinguish between them. Same with the transfer pages. While there doesn't seem to be a fully agreed standard, I've just been going on what was used in previous seasons picked up from previous editors. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Consistency with squad lists from previous seasons doesn't mean much, as those previous squads aren't visible anymore. Consistency just for the sake of consistency also isn't enough. Edits and decisions about them must make sense and be logic. This one isn't. Short-term and development squad members are already distingguished from full squad members by using abbreviations like DEV and ST. The footnotes under the squad lists also make it more than clear why players have been added later. Listing them in any other order (by position) other than alphabetical is - in my opinion - just messy. Ruggalicious (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Rugbyfan22, as you've stated "I've just been going on what was used in previous seasons picked up from previous editors". Please stop removing updates from pages because you have a citation preference. You should also avoid using "Uncylopedic" as a reason to remove an update to a page, as it unclear and not a word. Thank you so much for your contributions. WIKIBEAL (talk) 21:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Departed players removed from squad lists

Hi Rugbyfan22, I noticed you've undone my revert that restored the names of departed players from the Template:Hawke's Bay NPC squad. Your reason for removing these players' names is that "squad templates are used to link current squad players, given the players have departed and the templates no longer listed on their pages, their incoming links shouldn't be used in the templates". I disagree with that. The squad templates list players who are/were part of the "current squad". A squad is current until the next squad is officially named for the following season. It's fine to remove the link to the squad template from the departing players' pages, but because the current squad list still appears on pages of players who are staying, it has to remain the "current" squad. Removing players from that list suggests that they were never part of the current squad and that is wrong. I'm not going to edit-war with you on this, but I ask you kindly to undo your own changes. You're misinterpreting what these squad lists are for. Ruggalicious (talk) 22:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The squad templates are there to reflect on current players from the squads, so users can easily link to other players from the squad. Links for players should then be reflected in the equivalent player page. If links to players are to remain in the squad list, then the relevant template should remain listed on the players played (otherwise the transclusions wouldn't match). I'd have no issue if they were re-added, as long as the templates were re-added to previously player pages, however I was just going by past precedent on this. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Nationalities/flag icons in squad lists

Hi @Rugbyfan22, I noticed that you changed the flags before the names of a number of players named in the Moana Pasifika squad. Isn't the convention that players get the flag of the country they were born in, unless they are capped by another country? If so, then Suetena Asomua, Ofa Tauatevalu, Lalomilo Lalomilo and Pepesana Patafilo should have the New Zealand flag, as they're uncapped and born in New Zealand.

I'd also suggest using the Australian flag for Thomas Maka, Irie Papuni, Ola Tauelangi and Sateki Latu. I coulnd't find the birthplace of Thomas Maka (also called Tomasi Maka, Tom Maka or Thomas Xavier-Maka), Irie Papuni and Sateki Latu, but there's nothing that suggest they were born in Tonga. Australia is far more likely. Ola Tauelangi was born in Ballarat.

The press release from Moana Pasifika only refers to heritage, not nationality. Ruggalicious (talk) 11:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah was only going off the press release from the squad article. Asomua and Lalomilo can probably be changed back. Patafilo played for Samoa U20 so there's more of a cause for listing him as Samoan. Tauatevalu, Tauelangi and Latu are all listed as Tongan by AllRugby database site, but no links for Maka or Papuni so they could be changed back. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 17:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I have changed a few flags in the MP squad lists. AllRugby is just as (un)reliable as other sources that give different nationalities, so where there's no clear, conclusive source, I've gone with most likely birth country, based on where they received their school education and played 1st XV and club rugby. We can always change it if we find a conclusive source or the player gets capped.

Ofa Tauatevalu is from Gisborne, so New Zealand flag.

U20s don't affect eligibility; many players have played U20s for more than one country, so that really means nothing. I've changed the flag back to that of NZ for Pepesana Patafilo, who was born in Wellington.

The only player where I still have doubt is Abraham Pole. I vaguely remember reading he was born in Tonga, but can't find it at the moment. I haven't changed "his" flag. Ruggalicious (talk) 02:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Unrelated to the flag icon question: in the squad lists, why have you grouped all outside backs in one group instead of split them into wingers and fullbacks? Of some players it's a well-known fact what their position is, so it doesn't make sense to make it so general. I'm sure an interested visitor who doesn't know the details, would much rather know whether a player plays on the wing or at fullback than "somewhere in the back three".

One clear example (but there are more): Zarn Sullivan is a fullback, who sometimes covers 10, but never plays on the wing, so why call him an outside back? Especially considering he's labelled as a fullback on the Blue's website? Obviously, this is just one example. It applies to other squads as well. If we can split them into wings and fullbacks on the transfer lists, we can do the same in the squad lists (although there we can sometimes add a utility back as well). Ruggalicious (talk) 03:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

The majority of squad list I've seen, that have listed squads by position anyway, have listed outside backs instead of wings and fullbacks. Obviously there are a few players who's positions are always debatable such as Sullivan (his Blues profile lists him as a fullback only, and his All Black profile as an outside back, but has obviously played 10 a fair bit in the NPC) but it seems to be a better solution competition wide as there are a number of teams in the competition who don't have a recognised out and out fullback (Highlanders and Rebels for example). Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)