User talk:Rich jj/Sandbox/List of tabernacles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Definition and criteria

In my reading there seems to be some question about what constitutes a tabernacle. In the table I've tried to note which buildings were presented as tabernacles by which major sources:

• "J-" in the name column means Crystal Jenson said it was a tabernacle.
• "RSC- in the image column means Richard Jackson said it was a tabernacle (in his Religious Studies Center book)

Other major sources that could be listed include Aaron McArthur's 2005 thesis and Allen Roberts's 1974 survey. Maybe Mark Hamilton or Paul Anderson could be referenced too. Maybe this could end up looking something like List of the wives of Joseph Smith, Jr.#List of wives, which lists the inclusion of each wife according to Todd Compton, George D. Smith, and Fawn Brodie, thought to be the major sources on the discussion.

Listing these sources in the main table helps provide perspective on what the experts believe since so many buildings have been called tabernacles amidst dispute. This includes buildings that:

1. everyone agrees are tabernacles
2. were later succeeded by tabernacles (and subsequently received that designation)
3. were normal meetinghouses, but briefly used for stake meetings and therefore called "Stake Tabernacles" in that time
4. were elaborate and distinctive, but only for ward/branch use
5. were not called tabernacles, but fit the normal criteria

I decided to list all of these structures in the same table together since I don't see strict uniformity in the "tabernacle" designation.

I have even found some buildings were called tabernacles at some time, but perhaps it was in a casual or general sense because no other sources agree. Perhaps the terms "stake center" and "stake tabernacle" were synonymous to some people in the mid-19th-century. These less-credible entries I put into a separate table at User:Rich jj/Sandbox/Tabernacles (purported). ——Rich jj (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I moved this section from User talk:Rich jj/Sandbox/Tabernacles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since it pertains more to the list than a general discussion of tabernacles.

Since raising this issue last year, I have a few more thoughts:

• I have tried to list all structures that have been called "tabernacles" and which sources do so. See User:Rich jj/Sandbox/Tabernacles (purported)#Tabernacle sources. That page's sources haven't been kept up to date as I've added to the main list article's table.
• A month ago I learned that some are beginning to formulate the position that tabernacles must be stake buildings in use or construction. The idea is that a ward tabernacle is actually a meetinghouse and calling it a tabernacle is an improper attempt to raise its stature and a misuse of the way the word "tabernacle" was used at the time. I have some disagreement with this theory since I'm pretty sure some ward buildings were called tabernacles from their very beginnings (such as Lehi) before they became stake buildings. This idea needs further research into whether ward tabernacles were always called such or were originally thought of as meetinghouses.
• Another part of this theory is that tabernacles shouldn't have classrooms/offices. The idea is that a tabernacle with classrooms and offices is actually a stake center. However, this would dispute several non-controversial tabernacles, such as the Granite Tabernacle or the Beaver Stake Tabernacle. This idea needs further research into how many tabernacles have had classrooms and offices in addition to an assembly hall. ——Rich jj (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Table improvements

Besides the designation/criteria issues (discussed above), I have several concerns with the big table of tabernacles. I like information and I like having the ability to sort dates to see which was the earliest and latest buildings, which are still standing, which took the longest to construct? I also listed locations in a sortable way so I could see which were in Utah or other specific places. For example, I can sort by county and see several structures in Utah County alone.

However, this clutters the table and makes too many cells that aren't easy on the eyes. Any ideas? Should I list locations as State, County, City in a single cell, that way all states are sorted together automatically? Isn't that a bit of an awkward way of listing location? ——Rich jj (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

• Here is a little trick I've learned, it works great with templates, until then, it needs some duplicate info:

Name	Image	Location				Began	Finished	Status	Notes
Alberta Stake Tabernacle	RSC-	Cardston	Cardston County	AB	CAN	1908 1902? 1904?	1911 1912? 1913? 1915?	Razed 1954	Alberta Stake Tabernacle RSC- Cardston, Cardston County, AB, CAN Began: 1908 1902? 1904? Finished: 1911 1912? 1913? 1915? Razed: 1954 Notes: Cost $65,000 and seated 1,200. Dedicated 1913. Alberta Temple would be built nearby. Also called Cardston Tabernacle. By 1956, replaced by another tabernacle to the west on 3rd St., between 3rd and 4th Ave.
J- Alpine Stake Tabernacle	RSC-	American Fork, Utah County, UT, USA				Utah County	UT	USA	1909	1914 1913?	Still in use	Cost $81,000. Seats 2,000. Dedicated 1915. Remodeled 1982. Address: Main and 1st East, American Fork.

These are just examples, the formatting needs work. -Lөvөl 17:25, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm new to this level of table sophistication. I'll try it out soon and see how it works for me. ——Rich jj (talk) 20:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I moved this section from User talk:Rich jj/Sandbox/Tabernacles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since it pertains more to the list than a general discussion of tabernacles. I think the table is looking good, other than that it is still very large and takes forever to load, maybe due to all its sources and special formatting. Hopefully this will improve over time as the data is cleaned up. With so much data, I resist creating special columns for cost and seating capacity. ——Rich jj (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Conflicting/missing data

Some pieces of basic data are either missing or disputed for many tabernacles. In the table, I've tried to show each case where there is some dispute in the sources. Of course, this looks terribly messy, but I'm trying to figure out what is credible. When a year is given for a building, is it when it was begun, the structure completed, completion of lingering finishing work, or the dedication? When an end date is given, is it the date of discontinuation, condemnation, sale, or demolition? Records can be scant, so could the actual date actually be unknown and dates are extrapolated from extant records or local recollections? Sometimes I can find a great source that goes into detail, building my confidence. Other times all sources disagree and give no additional explanation.

I assume it will take some time to populate the table with good data for each building. ——Rich jj (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I moved this section from User talk:Rich jj/Sandbox/Tabernacles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since it pertains more to the list than a general discussion of tabernacles.

I'm still gathering data from various sources, but I've found that Richard Jackson is often unreliable. Sometime the dates in his tabernacles appendix contradict the dates he gives earlier in the chapter sections. I suppose the most believable sources are newspapers, preferably when confirmed by others. Because of so much disagreement I often have to cite several sources that agree, so that when a disagreeing source is found it will be clear that the date in the table is stronger. This greatly inflates the number of citations in this article. ——Rich jj (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

CORRECTION ON PROVO TABERNACLE SEATING: I played organ there for over 30 years. Seating is 2200 and not 3000. S. Koyle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.36.141 (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for the information! It's great to hear from people with real experience. The figure of seating capacity at 3000 comes from a description of the Provo Tabernacle that was written on the Nomination Form submitted to the National Register of Historic Places. I think it was written by Allen D. Roberts, an authority on Utah and LDS architecture, but perhaps not an expert on the Provo Tabernacle in particular. I trust your figure of 2200, based on your personal knowledge, but in order to use this figure I must find a good published source that I can cite in the article (according to Wikipedia's rules about original research and verifiability). I'll look around for such a reference. ——Rich jj (talk) 13:31, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Needed pictures

We have several pictures in the list, but there are still many missing that are still standing and may be photographed:

• Blackfoot Tabernacle (Blackfoot, Idaho)
• Blanding Tabernacle (Blanding, Utah)
• Ely Stake Tabernacle (Ely, Nevada)
• Granite Stake Tabernacle (Salt Lake City, Utah)
• Hollywood Stake Tabernacle (Los Angeles, California)
• Honolulu Stake Tabernacle (Honolulu, Hawaii)
• Huntington Park Tabernacle (Huntington Park, California)
• Kanab Tabernacle (Kanab, Utah)
• Kanesville Tabernacle replica (Council Bluffs, Iowa)
• Lethbridge Tabernacle (Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada)
• Manti Tabernacle (Manti, Utah)
• Minidoka Stake Tabernacle (Rupert, Idaho)
• Montpelier Stake Tabernacle (Montpelier, Idaho)
• Morgan Stake Tabernacle (Morgan, Utah)
• Oakland Stake Tabernacle (Oakland, California)
• Oneida Stake Tabernacle (Preston, Idaho)
• Rexburg Stake Tabernacle (Rexburg, Idaho)
• Richfield Stake Tabernacle (Richfield, Utah)
• Snowflake Tabernacle (Snowflake, Arizona)
• Spring City Tabernacle (Spring City, Utah)
• Star Valley Tabernacle (Afton, Wyoming)
• Teton Stake Tabernacle 2 (Driggs, Idaho)

There are others that I'm not sure if they are still standing or demolished long ago:

• Boise Stake Tabernacle (Boise, Idaho)
• Malad Stake Tabernacle 1 (Portage, Idaho)
• San Luis Tabernacle (Manassa, Colorado)
• Twin Falls Tabernacle (Twin Falls, Idaho)

There are still others that I think are less likely to actually qualify as tabernacles, found at User:Rich jj/Sandbox/Tabernacles (purported). ——Rich jj (talk) 19:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

What do we do about tabernacles that are no longer existing? Can we use copyrighted materials under some fair use (as with deceased persons) or is this discouraged? ——Rich jj (talk) 19:12, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Of the tabernacles no longer standing, pictures of them may have been published in the United States before 1923, making them public domain. I have already supplied several, but public domain pictures of the others might exist as long as they were built before 1923:

• Iowa tabernacles (I think there was one published in the 1850s, but I can't remember where)
• Alberta Stake Tabernacle (Cardston, Alberta, Canada)
• Bannock Stake Tabernacle (Grace, Idaho)
• Beaver Stake Tabernacle (Beaver, Utah)
• Benson Stake Tabernacle (Richmond, Utah)
• Burley Stake Tabernacle (Burley, Idaho)
• Carbon Stake Tabernacle (Price, Utah)
• Cassia Stake Tabernacle (Oakley, Idaho)
• Cedar City Tabernacle (Cedar City, Utah)
• Ephraim Tabernacle (Ephraim, Utah)
• Idaho Falls Tabernacle (Idaho Falls, Utah)
• Juab Stake Tabernacle (Nephi, Utah)
• Malad Stake Tabernacle 2 (Malad City, Idaho)
• Maricopa Stake Tabernacle (Mesa, Arizona)
• Moroni Tabernacle (Moroni, Utah)
• Old Ogden Tabernacle (Ogden, Utah)
• Old Payson Tabernacle (Payson, Utah)
• Old Provo Tabernacle (Provo, Utah)
• Panguitch Stake Tabernacle (Panguitch, Utah)
• Preston Stake Tabernacle (Preston, Idaho)
• Price Tabernacle (Price, Utah)
• Rigby Stake Tabernacle (Rigby, Idaho)
• San Luis Tabernacle (Manassa, Colorado)
• Sevier Stake Tabernacle (Richfield, Utah)
• Springville Tabernacle (Springville, Utah)
• Summit Stake Tabernacle (Coalville, Utah)
• Teton Stake Tabernacle 1 (Driggs, Idaho)
• Thatcher Tabernacle (Thatcher, Arizona)
• Willard Tabernacle (Willard, Utah)
• Yellowstone Stake Tabernacle (St. Anthony, Idaho)

I moved this section from User talk:Rich jj/Sandbox/Tabernacles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since it pertains more to the list than a general discussion of tabernacles. I have also updated the list of photos with what is now available. ——Rich jj (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's a link for an image of the Maricopa Stake Tabernacle: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19080104&id=s5gwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WkgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6229,352015
This is an image of a 1908 Deseret News article, found at Google's newspaper archive; unfortunately it's not a quality image. A higher quality version of what seems to be the same image appears on page 66 of Latter-day Saints in Mesa (2009) ISBN 9780738558578 so there has to be a good source for it available somewhere, probably from the Mesa Historical Museum. There might be something more in the Mesa Tribune, Arizona Republic, or Phoenix Gazette archives. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 00:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Hey that's great! How did I not notice this little edit for so long? Perhaps because I rarely spend time on this project anymore. It was a big undertaking. Anyway, I hope to remember to take the time to make this into a Wikimedia Commons picture and add it to the list. I also did some more searching and found images for the Coalville Tabernacle and the Sevier Stake Tabernacle. ——Rich jj (talk) 18:27, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Picture of Old Ogden tabernacle. ——Rich jj (talk) 05:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

This stake history book has pictures/descriptions of the 3 tabernacles of the Malad Stake. But it's not clear if the copyright has expired. It has no copyright notice and I see no entry in the catalog of U.S. copyrights since 1978. According to the Hirtle chart, as long as it was published by March 1, 1989 it is "In the public domain due to failure to comply with required formalities." The problem is that the date is not given anywhere. The latest date in the text is for missionary assignments up to August 1988 (p. 67). On Worldcat (and all its linked libraries) there is an uncertain "1989?", with a question mark. Is this an inference from the book's title? I assume the book was published late 1988 or early 1989 and fits into this public domain category. ——Rich jj (talk) 18:18, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Similarly, this book contains pictures of the Teton Stake Tabernacles. There is also no copyright notice or registration in the U.S. copyright catalog. This one is more obviously in the public domain. ——Rich jj (talk) 18:55, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Picture of Old Ogden Tabernacle, in classic form

Picture of Oneida Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Alpine Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Bannock Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Cassia Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Bear Lake Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Benson Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Bear River Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Teton Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Kaysville Tabernacle

Picture of Summit Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Wayne Stake Tabernacle

Picture of Fremont Stake Tabernacle

Spring City

Uintah Stake Tabernacle

Manti Tabernacle

Woodruff Stake Tabernacle

Snowflake Tabernacle

St. George Tabernacle

Juab Stake Tabernacle

Nebo Stake Tabernacle

Nebo Stake Tabernacle

Utah Stake Tabernacle

Cache Stake Tabernacle

Riverton Meetinghouse

Parowan Tabernacle

Carbon Stake Tabernacle

——Rich jj (talk) 22:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Blackfoot Tabernacle ——Rich jj (talk) 02:40, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Montpelier Stake Tabernacle ——Rich jj (talk) 05:09, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Union Stake Tabernacle

(same picture from UDN)

——Rich jj (talk) 05:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Morgan Stake Tabernacle, interior

(same picture from UDN)

again

——Rich jj (talk) 05:22, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Uintah Stake Tabernacle

(same picture from UDN)

——Rich jj (talk) 05:26, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Provo Tabernacle, and another. ——Rich jj (talk) 22:27, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Cedar City Tabernacle ——Rich jj (talk) 22:10, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Springville? ——Rich jj (talk) 06:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Granite Stake

(same picture from UDN)

another Granite picture

(Richfield from UDN)

Richfield from UDN, again

Richfield?

(Coalville from UDN)

(Maricopa from UDN)

Nebo interior from UDN

Malad from UDN

church bureau of information

Pleasant Grove

Sevier Stake

Mesa First Ward

Bear River Stake

American Fork

American Fork construction

Wasatch Stake

Provo

Nebo Stake

Nebo Stake (2)

Union Stake (2)

Union Stake

Uintah Stake

Uintah Stake

Jacksonville, FL

Granite Stake

Price, UT

Douglas, AZ

Gardo House

Lehi

——Rich jj (talk) 21:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)