User talk:Mountaincirque/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

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Louie Barry

But it's not a senior competition, hence the presence of U21 teams! Playing for/against a U21 team in it does not confer notability, and it's not a notable appearance. So many youth players play in it. This is an encyclopaedia, not a sports almanac, we don't need details of every game/goal. GiantSnowman 16:22, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: It is a senior FA competition and appearances are part of a player's pro record as can be seen across multiple sources and here on Wikipedia, this is undisputable and has nothing to do with notability in this instance, it's just a fact to be added to his career. If you'd like to prove with references and examples that the EFL Trophy appearances should not be included then please go ahead; based on your logic above you seem to suggest that you would excise the parts of players' professional record that were against U21 sides in an FA professional competition, only including games where they played against non-U21 sides, this is your own opinion and not backed up anywhere on this encyclopaedia; these U21s are professionals and when they play in an official competitive match in an FA Cup or Trophy that goes on their pro record. Based on your comment above you would have to trawl through each League One and Two side's players and then proceed to remove all EFL Trophy appearances against U21 sides because they are 'not worthy', you can start with Sunderland who thrashed Aston Villa U21 in the last round of games whose players have all those goals and appearances recorded on their career stats. I'd advise you take this to WP:Football as it could be controversial.

To focus in on Louie Barry specifically, even if we disagree on the career stats section being included it boggles my mind that you don't think this young player playing in the EFL Trophy should even be mentioned on his page with a Sky Sports reference. This is the most senior match he has played in an FA-ratified and organised pro competition. It's nowhere near comparable to a pure U23/18 academy match.

Can you please allow me to enter the fact that he played in the EFL Trophy with multiple references? This is nothing to do with 'notability' as he has already met the notability guidance due to press coverage, being the first English player in La Masia (and I'm not the creator of this page). Mountain^cirque 07:48, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: Someone else has added the appearance back in with two references, feel free to take it up with them if you want to. Mountain^cirque 07:58, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Yep, and I'm not going to remove it again. GiantSnowman 10:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Transfermarkt is not reliable and AFAIK Soccerbase doesn't have youth international stats...I note you haven't provided any stats. The infobox says he played for England U15 2017 to 2018, implying he made appearances in 2017 - so your stats are incorrect. Obviously if that is unsourced then remove the dates as well... GiantSnowman 12:33, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Japanese female martial artists

Hi!

Not having seen your name show up in the past on articles on pre-Meiji Japanese history, I was curious, and a bit digging indicated that you have been acting on Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial arts/Karate task force -- is it possible that the term "onna-bugeisha" is used in your circles to refer to Japanese women martial artists? The article in question never claimed to be about martial arts but rather female samurai. I've read a lot of books and articles, and attended (or listened to online or via Audible) a large number of lectures and museum exhibits on Japanese history, including on the fujotai and Tomoe-gozen, but never encountered the phrase outside of Wikipedia and a few dubious online sources that either definitely or very likely got their information from Wikipedia.

But if you have encountered it in books on karate or other Japanese martial arts, then I would welcome the creation of a new article that didn't conflate "female martial artist" with "female samurai and/or women involved in wars in pre-modern Japan". However, it would have to be a separate article, since the current article was always about women of the samurai class, and was simply misnamed.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:04, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: let's not argue! I'm just trying to improve the article and any changes should be made with a consensus. My post was mainly aimed at the editor who had made the proposal and then moved the page themself, which is against the guidelines. I hope we can work on the article together to bring it up to scratch. At this stage I do feel like there should be a mention in the lead along the lines of also referred to as Onna bugeisha', as there are just so many occurrences of that term in English (this is the English Wikipedia) -even if it is not the correct translation or use from the original Japanese. Alternatively there could be a 'Use of the term' or 'Etymology' section where there is a brief discussion/justification of the correct terminology, the article Karate has that for example. That would really clear up the article for me and make it clear what should be included. Mountaincirque^talk 13:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Demanding a consensus for any and all changes to an article on a poorly understood topic that is so obscure that when I opened an RM on it I immediately notified three separate, vibrant WikiProjects and yet the RM got no outside opinions in almost a month is a very unreasonable request. If you intend to "improve" the article with the circular sources you linked to on the talk page, then you are not going to improve it at all. You have now been made thoroughly aware that there was no unilateral action -- a move was proposed, and it went unopposed for over three months, during which time an uninvolved party implemented the move: do you acknowledge these facts? If so, then we can potentially discuss ways the article could be improved, but please note that Wikipedia is not a dictionary -- the article is supposed to be about the topic of women warriors in pre-modern Japan, not the phrase "onna-bugeisha". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:47, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

PS, yes, I am very interested in Karate and Japanese martial arts generally, but I do not read Japanese, so happy to be guided by those that do. Mountaincirque^talk 13:43, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

If you do not read Japanese, then I would ask you not to talk down to those who do; I have told you what "onna-bugeisha" literally means, I have told you that no one in Japan (and apparently no one outside Japan prior to 2006) uses it the way you claim, and you seem to be unwilling to accept what I tell you for ... some reason. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:47, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)By the way, sorry if I come across as gruff. I've had some bad experiences in the recent past with people going out of their way specifically to undermine me on niche topics that it is very difficult to get other Wikipedians to care about. I don't mean to imply that you are doing this, just that I have little patience for it. I am sorry if I caused any offense or distress, but if you are going to expect me to be patient with you regarding LLC sources and Japanese-language sources, I would appreciate your understanding in this matter. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:39, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm being very civil with you and I really don't know why you're being so rude with me, I haven't talked down to you and have just said I was happy to be guided by you, and also that I would not do anything to the article without consensus. I might not speak much Japanese but I understand how page naming works on Wikipedia, hence if a term is used heavily in English with a very high number of references for that then it should be mentioned in an article and would normally be the page title. You disagree with the idea of using 'Onna bugeisha' at all, it's an incorrect translation, I get it! But, it's in common usage in English, the last decade of books and articles on the topic have used this in English (as well as French, Italian and Spanish articles). Even if it's included with a line that states the incorrect translation Onna bugeisha is often used to refer to Onna musha then fine but that would presumably be original research as I haven't seen a sources that discusses the difference between onna bugeisha and onna musha.

Please read this guidance to see where I'm coming from and understand it's not a personal argument with you: Wikipedia: Naming conventions (use English) [note 3rd paragraph: do not substitute a systematically transliterated name for the common English form of the name] Mountaincirque^talk 14:06, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I have admitted (in an edit that I only now noticed I failed to save the better part of an hour ago) that I may have been a bit gruff, but I would appreciate your understanding that it is frustrating explaining the problem with LLC books to someone with close to 10,000 edits. Anyway, I wouldn't exactly say you have been "civil" -- you misrepresented something I said to mean the exact opposite of what I said, I asked you not to do that, and you doubled down and did it again. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:39, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, I would ask you to read the (more relevant) guidance at Wikipedia:Do not create hoaxes, notably some very sophisticated hoaxes, such as articles about made-up historical individuals with detailed biographical information and fake references, have lasted for several years before being detected. These hoax articles hurt the reputation of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. The fact that some sources have emerged since the hoax article in question was created that use the same wording as the article doesn't make "onna-bugeisha" the "common English form" of the name for women warriors in pre-modern Japan. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:43, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Maureen Kelley

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Articles for creation

Mountaincirque, There is a full-featured article for Reza Goodary on the WikiProject Martial Arts as meet WP:N for transfer to MainSpace. The sources are complete by WP:NWSRC. Please kindly and check. Thank you. AriaTess (talk) 06:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Karate task force Barnstar
		Dear Mountaincirque, This is the first Karate task force Barnstar that is proudly presented for your tireless efforts. AriaTess (talk) 13:58, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Well thank you very much AriaTess, that's very kind. Thanks for your work on the barnstar and userboxes, please keep inviting any other editors you come across to the task force. I will try to uphold the barnstar, as my edits have been a little more sparse recently since the pandemic. Mountaincirque^talk 09:35, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I am a retired full contact karate journalist. I will do my best to growing the sports Wikipedia. As your account is older and has much access, please try to submit the barnstar to WP:WPWPA by submit in WT:*. Regards. AriaTess (talk) 10:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

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