User talk:Keahapana/Archive 5

Supposed ancient references to the Giant Panda

Hello! I have been trying to expand a bit the section Giant_Panda#Uses_and_human_interaction, and in this connection I would like to ask your advice, as I am aware of your interest in the creatures that populate the pages of the Erya, Shanhaijing etc. A number of sources (e.g. Shaller (1993), p. 61, or 食铁兽) say that the Erya mentions the giant panda (presumably, as either the mo 貘 or the pi[xiu] 貔[貅]). In particular, 食铁兽 even gives a quote, supposedly from the Erya (chapter 释兽), about the creature's appearance and the proclivity to eat copper and iron in addition to bamboo: “似熊、小头、痹脚、黑白驳,能舐食铜铁及竹骨。”

Now, the thing is that the text of that chapter, neither on WikiSource (s:zh:爾雅), nor elsewhere, contains no text like this - in fact, it hardly has any sentences that long; all they have to say about these 2 creatures is:

• 貘，白豹。(Mo, a white leopard)
• 貔，白狐。其子豰，麝父𢋵足。(Pi, white fox; and then says something about its relation to some tiger/leopard like creature, and a musk deer).

Similarly, Historical Records in Ancient China claims that "[in the] Book of Mountains and Seas, ... , the Giant Panda is described as such: with white and black fur, it looks like bear; and found in Yandao County of Qionglai Mountain (the present Rongjing County, Sichuan Province), Giant Pandas were named Iron-eating Animal because it was said that it eats metals." But, again, the only references to "iron" (鐵) I can find in the Shanhaijing are of the kind "其陰多鐵", etc. - it seems like the people there were aware of a lot of iron-ore deposits... Plenty of creatures that could 食人, but noone seems to be eating iron or copper... I don't see any mo 貘 or pi 貔 in the Shanhaijing either.

Would you have an opinion on the above? Do you think that the above authors may have been referring to some kind of "expanded" text of the Erya or Shanhaijing (e.g., a later annotated edition of either work), or this is simply an example of people erroneously associating a quote with a more famous source? --- Vmenkov (talk) 06:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello Vmenkov! I'd be glad to look into these references and will let you know what I find. You're right. Since my PhD dissertation was on the Erya, I have some familiarity with these texts. Best wishes, Keahapana (talk) 19:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I’ve finally gotten a chance to look up these non-panda names. Sorry it took so long.

The Erya definitions are:

• "Mo 貘 "tapir; panther" is baibao 白豹 "white panther"." Guo Pu's commentary gives this 似熊小頭痹脚黑白駁… explanation and notes the baibao is white and different from the mo. Xing Bing's sub-commentary quotes the Shuowen definition of mo as resembling a yellow and black bear and coming from Shu (state), the Jingdian shiwen quote says white and black. Xing also quotes the Shenyijing 神異經 (not Shanhaijing) recording a southern animal called nietie 齧鐵 "bite iron" with (iron-hard) feces that can be made into military weapons, black shiny hair,… Bernard Read's Chinese Materia Medica, Animal Drugs (1932, no. 353) identifies mo or baibao as Malayan Tapir (modern 馬来貘) and notes (353a) nietie is "A southern species. The size of water buffalo, black and shiny. The feces are as hard as iron. One animal was recorded 7 feet high which could travel 300 li a day." Do you have access to Read's book?
• "Pi 貔 is baihu 白狐 "white fox", its young is called hu 豰." [This 麝父𢋵足 is the following "musk-deer" definition.] Guo notes another name of zhiyi 執夷 and identifies it as a kind of hu 虎 "tiger" or bao 豹 "panther; leopard". Xing mentions the pixiu 貔貅 "a mythical animal" (cf. 辟邪?), which differs from this pi "(not white) fox".

In short, these kinds of Chinese-language websites are not reliable references for WP, but they might be worthwhile as External links. Let me know if I can be of further help. Best wishes, Keahapana (talk) 02:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks! Read's book is available in the local university library, so I'll get it when I visit the next time (within a month). Until then, I just have snippet view on Google Books. I'll write a draft of a new version of that section in my user space, and will show it to you for expert assistance once it's ready. -- Vmenkov (talk) 03:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome. Would you like me to send you PDFs of the Erya definitions with commentaries? If so, email me through the Wikipedia link. Also, the zh WP 貔貅 article mentions the panda hypothesis. I'll be glad to check your draft. Keahapana (talk) 21:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

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Thank you, Weaponbb7 (talk)

Hun and po

Hi Keahapana! I don't know if you check the talk pages of articles, but I did leave a message at Talk:Hun and po commending your work thus far on hun and po. I want to ask you something, though: do you have plans to add a history section to the article? You've done a wonderful job explaining the written characters, etymology, and semantics regarding hun and po, but the article lacks information on the exact time frames of when the hun and po were observed and recognized by the ancient Chinese. In my sandbox pages, I have a few notes about hun and po taken verbatim from Hansen (2000) and Csikszentmihalyi (2006), but they only discuss hun and po as they were observed during the Han Dynasty. If you get around to adding a history section, I would love to help out by utilizing and citing the two mentioned sources in your article, so please send me a message on my talk page when that happens. Cheers!--Pericles of Athens^Talk 00:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi Pericles. My bad. I apologize for overlooking your kind comments on the Talk page. Since I'm interested in Chinese linguistics, I simply started the hunpo article with the easy sections and the next one should be History. Good timing! Yes, please start it and add all your relevant sandbox materials, which look great. I'll add some citations for pre-Han beliefs that I'm currently copying and we can consolidate everything later. Thanks again, Keahapana (talk) 03:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Great! I'm going to be out of town until Friday. After I come back home, I'll see to it that a history section is created. However, if you take that initiative before I return home, I will still add the relevant material to the history section. Regards.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 03:23, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Honestly

I don't remember. -- m:drini 01:27, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

That's OK, no problem. Keahapana (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request#Feifel_translations

Dear Keahapana! I think I can copy these translations for You. Do you still need them? Cheers, Doc Taxon (talk) 16:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, please. That would be very helpful. Thanks in advance, Keahapana (talk) 18:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

email sent! Doc Taxon (talk) 17:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I received the files. Many thanks for your help. Keahapana (talk) 18:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I am already looking for

• Penny, Benjamin. 1996. "The Text and Authorship of Shenxian zhuan," Journal of Oriental Studies 34:165-209.

But it will last some days. Greetings, Doc Taxon (talk) 18:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

You've got an eMail! Doc Taxon (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Restoration of chinglish article

Keahapana, The sections removed from the chinglish article are not referenced, and seem to contain inaccuracies, may I ask why you have restored them?61.170.228.100 (talk) 08:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.170.228.100 (talk) 08:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi anonymous user near Shanghai. Please see your Talk page. Keahapana (talk) 21:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

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Thanks, Prime Blue (talk) 22:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

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