User talk:GourangaUK/Archive 6

Krishna Article image

Hari, throw this in the Krishna article and have a preview. I think it's an improvement, but let me know your thoughts. Ys

{{Hdeity infobox| <!--Wikipedia:WikiProject Hindu mythology--> Image = Rukmini-Dwarakadisa.jpg | Caption = [[Dwarakadisa]] (Krishna) and [[Rukmini]], Los Angeles

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Chopper Dave, 12:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC).

I love the photograph but feel the existing image in the Krishna article is a more universal depiction of Krishna and thus more appropriate for that particular article. I've added the photo into other sections where I think it fits quite well, especially those related to deity worship. Is this okay with you? Best wishes, ys, Gouranga(UK) 15:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Kindly do not revert my edits. It is not un-sourced. Please study more about the life of Krishna. The gopis wanted Krishna as their husband and Krishna fulfilled their wishes. It is not controversial and provoking. --Radha2008 (talk) 07:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine with me, I just want to steer away from the "Krishna, the ancient hindu forest love god" look that the current image gives... :) Chopper Dave 15:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Balarama9.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Balarama9.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 17:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Balarama9.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Balarama9.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Maxim_{(talk) (contributions)} 20:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Balarama9.jpg was uploaded when no other copyright-free image could be found in 2006. It has since been replaced in the main article by a free image. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 08:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Balarama9.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Balarama9.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 15:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Bhagwan disambig

You are right - I will create a new disambig page for the name Bhagwan and redirect there. Thedreamdied 16:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation page would be fine by me too. To my knowledge, the title "Bhagwan" alone has never been used in the West to refer to Sai Baba or Ramana Maharshi e.g., nor any other teacher; that happened only with Rajneesh. With him, people in the West simply did not understand that it was a generic title and seem to have thought of it as a unique name. Jayen466 22:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I did not realise that its a generic title. Does "blessed one" correspond with its sanskrit meaning would you say? Thedreamdied 17:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It's the vocative case (case of address) of bhagavat, which means blessed, fortunate. See MacDonell Sanskrit dictionary Cheers, Jayen466 20:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Article (Bhagavan (disambiguation)) created today. Best wishes, Gouranga(UK) 09:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks great. Jayen466 11:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Linking to youtube

"There is no blanket ban on linking to youtube..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Linking_to_YouTube.2C_Google_Video.2C_and_similar_sites Your deletion of Radhey Govinda Chanting on youtube was inappropriate and represented a conflict of interest. Wikipedia is not an ISKCON monopoly. Radhey Govinda chanting is relevent to a Hindu article about Govinda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rath yatra (talk • contribs) 02:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Note: see Talk:Govinda. Regards, ys Gouranga(UK) 16:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

ISKCON Controversy Edit

Greetings. In regard to the edit made here, I believe you are giving the readers a misrepresentation of the facts as I understand them. From reading the source provided, it seems the controversy began in November 1977. As currently worded it gives the impression that this started after 1977.

If you can educate me further on this topic I'd be greatly thankful DeeKenn (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind response! DeeKenn (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

conversion

I felt that this discussion on Talk:Hinduism#Conversion may need you to clear up a couple things.Bakaman 19:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Indian religions

Assistance needed on that page. An adamant nutcase is accounting for a lot of orthodox views there, saying Jainism co-existed with Vedic period and is as old as 2500 BC or even the Indus Valley civilization. Usko talk page par I tried to make him see sense, but he is a total chartered vandal. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 02:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

ISKCON gurus

Hey, I know the page called ISKCON guru was silly and needs work, but I want a page that allows for a list of all the ISKCON gurus who have a page. Otherwise it is hard to find them. I am working on this page, so please wait for a while to let me improve it. David G Brault (talk) 04:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Gouranga! Thank you so much for your message! I didn't know that that page existed. But I think that some more links should be made to it- the whole reason that I started the stupid little ISKCON guru page was that I couldn't find the List of ISKCON members and patrons page. Just let the page I made stay up a little longer and then I will fix everything.

I would like to start a WikiProject with you- to make the such categories such as ISKCON guru, zonal secretary, diksa, siksa, initiating guru, etc make sense. Why are some called His Holiness and others His Grace, etc.? I would like to know these things, and I would like them to be easily understandable to anyone who looks up ISKCON on Wikipedia.

The project would also encompass creating pages for uncovered ISKCON members: I think that there should at least be a page on all Zonal Secretaries.

Ys, David G Brault (talk) 20:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Hoo boy, Gouranga, you're probably right. I don't want to be writing irrelevant articles and obviously neither do you. However, (since I do not know how to work with vector images) making that absurd zonal secretary map truly took hours and hours. So I want to use it for its true potential. As merely a colored map it says absolutely nothing. What you took away obviously looked horrible, but it was a work in progress- it got late and I wanted to put up what I had before going to bed. However I want it to be like it was before so that I can indicate which colors stand for which people. How do you feel about this? I will work on it until it looks good, clean, and easily understandable. Ys, David G Brault (talk) 16:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, yeah, I know, that is my position on the matter too, and I am well aware of what a terrible lie it was to consider that 11 to be the successors. The point is, is that they were considered this. It took me a lot of annoying research to figure out how the history of ISKCON happened, and I would like to make this more apparent. Sure, I don't like the 11 successor gurus. I just want to have the Wikipedia article establish who they were. Please? I don't know, but for some reason it really bothers me that there is only passing mention on Wikipedia of what has been called "a bloodless coup" in ISKCON. I makes it seem like people think that if they don't write down this stuff it didn't happen.

But you know, my latest idea is just to start my own website on ISKCON stuff. So I think I'll just get out of everyone's hair as far as that goes. And write actually good articles on actually meaningful topics for Wikipedia. Do you like this article I just wrote? Ys, David G Brault (talk) 00:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Saligrama talk page

Mr Gouranga, my heartiest greetings to you for the season and best wishes for a very happy new year. Thank you for putting my article on "All About Saligrama" on the talk page. As an offshoot, can I link and create articles on a) Ratnagarbhas (Gem stone is covered seperately in Wiki, but the Vedic and the Hindu metaphyical perspective have not been brought out and b) the Dwarakasilas or Dvaravati sila (there is no Wiki page on this subject) based on some information provided under Saligrama article.--Nvvchar (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a Sanskrit scholar

I'm not a Sanskrit scholar. I’ve studied Buddhism quite a bit. Have you read the Vedanta? I got the meaning of the Sanskrit “go” from there. ISKCON has a reputation as an abusive cult. Keep away from them. I’m sure there are better Hindu groups.Barbara Shack (talk) 21:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Indian religions

[with cc to Bakasuprman]

I know that the talk page at Indian religions is probably the largest in wikipedia, but I sincerely request your assistance in countering repeat reverts of AnishShah19 who claims that Jainism stretched back to the Indus Valley civilization. He concludes that the Vedic tradition was parallel to Jainism and sramana.

Just browse through the page in 10 minutes you'll get his line of discussion (Harappan rishabha seals, naked munis described in Vedas and the standing posture of some Indus valley seals ). I'm in dire need of support from co-religionists too (he too is one, but astray). Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your message! Hari (talk) 04:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

ISKCON controversy

I am not for or against ISKCON. The controversy was all national dailies and on TV and i feel must be discussed. Any way,Lets wait for a third opinion. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

conversion

The old version was full of falsehoods. Balinese Hinduism the result of marriage? Certainly there weren't enough Indian sailors to both produce 1.1 billion Indians and Hindu-ize all of Indonesia/SE Asia.

Your version to me seemed to be a little too conciliatory towards desione, but at least it was somewhat sourced and factual.

I was bold and rewrote the section myself. Check out the use of (gasp!) RS's to back up the points.Bakaman 03:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Desione's intolerance is somewhat perturbing. The "paper" on Bali doesnt even mention the word "Hinduism". I can't believe he called us "ISKCON rabble rousers" on the page. His definition almost semitizes the religion, and the form of Hinduism portrayed is reactionary and fringy. Gandhi an expert on Hinduism? Even a notorious atheist would be more quotable.

However I thank you for your patience, and your dedication to improving content and portraying Hinduism for what it is; a religion that adapts to the times.Bakaman 18:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Vaishnavism

Vaishnavism and Tantra intersected and influenced each other throughought history. If I was required to define my spiritual tradition, Dharma, Tantra and Vaishnavism (amongst other elements) would be in the response. Tantra and Vaishnavism are not mutually exclusive. For you Gauranga, they may be, but for other Vaishnavas, like myself, they are not. Tantra entails a different "view" and techniques, not a different philosophy or practice. Tantric Vaishnavism is appropriate on the Vaishnava page as it demonstrates variation and difference. All Hinduism has been iterated by the Tantric 'view' (Sanskrit: drishti). Stop the exclusivity and separatism, inclusion is key. If we do not endeavour to understand the Other and integrate difference, our Shadow (psychology) rules us, and the Monkey on a Stick syndrome will continue. This article has no historical dimension which is a fundamental flaw. A historical view will demonstrate how the different Dharmic and non-Dharmic Traditions entered dialogue within the cultural cauldron. Be mindful that traditions are not monolithic, as part of the Human Condition they have evolved over millenia and demonstrate marked variations in time, place and circumstance.
Svaha
B9 hummingbird hovering ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I have requested information from the community as to how we may progress a solution suitable to both parties. Your wholesale deletions smack of religious intolerance. I am waiting for you to enter into dialogue to justify your rationale with a historical understanding of Vaishnavism.

Thanking you in anticipation

B9 hummingbird hovering ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Kirtanananda Swami

Thanks for your encouraging words, prabhu! Hrishikesh Henrydoktorski (talk) 18:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Namaste

Dear Gouranga,

I have had the great fortune of having some childhood experiences with Srila Prabhupada. He has been connected with my family before his mission to the West because he was the Guru of my mother's sister-in-law's mother (I know that was a mouthful, but we are members of the Rana Family of Nepal and in turn the Royal Family of Nepal), which was a strange coincidence. You can see a photo of me as a child in a beige raincoat next to Srila Prabhupada in the Prabhupada diaries printed by ISKCON. We still visit the temple and are in touch with some of the Swamis from the pioneering days of ISKCON.

The reason I am writing is not to toot my horn, I was wondering if you an answer something for me and share some knowledge.

Narsimha Bhagwan, the name I understand, but we also call Him Narsingh Bhagwan. When did the name Narsingh come into use, my question being, is there any record or idea of when the Narsingh was used for the first time to address this avatar?

I would loveif you could enlighten me on this because I am really curious.

Sincerely,

Gorkhali (talk) 03:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Gouranga,

Narsingh Bhagwan ki Jai!!!

LOL, I am the one doing the research for the article Singh :) It was a very biased article before and totally had some political agenda so I have been working on it and intend to make it my baby and work hard wih solid references and research.

I will be visiting Dr. O'Connell some time soon and hopefully he can also give me some more solid references to go by. I wish Dr. McLeod were still alive since he would have known a lot about the Sikh aspect in more detail without the ethnocentric view being pushed by some people on Wikipedia. I am also thinking of contact Dr Klaustermeir at University of Manitoba.

However, after saying all that, if you do come by any information, please do share it. I would really appreciate it.

Sincerely,

Gorkhali (talk) 21:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I stole your quote, I hope you don't mind, I just loved it.

Gorkhali (talk) 07:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Poverty in India Image

Beggar in Bodhgaya

There is a discussion going on regarding whether or not the following image should be a part of the Poverty in India page. Most Poverty in *Country* pages do not have any images, at most 1. User:Otolemur crassicaudatus has brought many images showing extreme poverty in India and has tried to mislead people into thinking this is the way a majority of poor Indians live. There is a vote in which your input would be appreciated. You can find this discussion here

I feel that the the Bodhgaya Beggar image does not represent poverty in India correctly because:

• The beggar in Bodhgaya image does not accurately depict poor people in India because they do not look like this. This man is an exception. To say that this man represents all poor people in India is very wrong. A small minority of Indias poor are disabled. Most living under the poverty line work long hours fishing, farming or as construction workers. This picture shows a man whose legs have been broken. Unless a majority of India's or even a fraction of the poor have legs like this, the image is irrelevant and undue to the poverty in india page.
• Poverty and Disability are not connected in any way. There are thousands of super rich people who are disabled.
• There are 11 country articles on poverty

• These have NO images: Poverty in Pakistan, Poverty in Africa, Poverty in China, Poverty in Australia, Poverty in Canada, Poverty in Malaysia, Poverty in Switzerland, Social issues in Brazil,
• These have 1 image Poverty in the United States, Poverty in France
• The Poverty in India page is the only one with more than 1 image. And the only reason for this is because User:Otolemur crassicaudatus has brought more and more images onto the page.

• This user is being uncivil and unyielding. This user has tried to have my user page deleted because it said America is priceless!
• This image is being used by User:Otolemur crassicaudatus to display his dislike of India and to mislead people into thinking that this is the plight of millions of poor Indians. This user has often added images showing extreme poverty to many India relating articles.[1] Even though this user knows that poverty is present in every country and that extreme poverty is not a fair representation of the Indian economy, this user has previously tried to add an image of children washing their clothes in a mud puddle to the economy section of the India page. This user has added this image to the poverty section of the Economy of India page, when a graph showing poverty would make more sense.
• WP:Undue says:

We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.

This can be applied to this because a very tiny fraction of poor people in India are disabled. Most work very hard trying to make a living for themselves. This image is misleading. Nikkul (talk) 03:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Honor Killing

Hello,

There is a discussion going on here about whether sati, an ancient form of suicide in which a woman voluntarily immolates herself, is considered honor killing. Since you have contributed to the Hinduism page, I thought you would be the right person to ask. I hope you will contribute to the discussion. Thanks

Nikkul (talk) 01:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you for your posting, it looks as if we like some of the same subjects. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 05:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Response to lack of references cited

Gouranga, I appreciate your concern. My edits were to point out the lack of references cited at the end of a statement of point which the article made. I have to disagree with you, there is much work to be done and standards should not be lowered. I added fact tags where I saw no reference cited. When a novice reads this information on wikipedia they need to have a source from which this information comes from, it can not just be what a person writes down, even if it is common knowledge to a particular religious community, it has to come from a reliable sources that has a citation. FYI, I feel that our time might be better spent finding real Wikipedia:Reliable sources for Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Please read

Gouranga, this is an example of an article that is from a reliable source and has a focus and details on the Governing Body Commission. It is at: [2] Try to find independent sources of information - NOT the websites OWNED by the subject of the article. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 23:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• You should take time and reflect on what you have done. I will also take a break but will still expect you to use the same standards as other Wikipedians do. Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons are useful. Ism schism (talk) 23:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticism of Bhagavad Gita

Christianity has a separate section for criticism of the Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible). I believe it has a purpose. I am a Hindu Brahmin (I was a priest few years ago). I am not here to vandalise Hinduism but I believe it clarifies doubts about Gita (also my mother's name, who recites all 18 chapters by heart!). We have to critically analyse our scriptures and clarify doubts. If there are historical mistakes we have to accept them as well. Being closed to criticism is new to Hinduism. We have debated Jews in the past to convince our philosophies or neither mystic nor farse.

With due respect I request you to remove the delete request. If you want to clarify or want to ask questions please feel free to talk.

Raghavendra

~rAGU (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Article has since been deleted. Regards, Gouranga(UK) (talk) 12:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This is vandalism. You did not even answer my concerns. Hail the new Wikipedia aristocrats huh? ~rAGU (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Gauranga dasa (RNS)‎

An editor has nominated Gauranga dasa (RNS)‎, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gauranga dasa (RNS)‎ and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Criteria

Hello Gouranga. What type of criteria are you using when you say that a particular person is a notable religious leader? I am using Wikipedia:Notability (people) as my main criteria. If you know more about any area of a subject, maybe you could use this knowledge to show how these individuals are notable. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 18:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

ISKCON leaders like Jayapataka Swami are notable because their position is notable and noted. An example is [3] For a person no longer living, like Bhakti Tirtha Swami, there is Satyaraja Dasa's Black Lotus. Yet, for living people there is a higher criteria [4] Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Please also note that listed above are three notable ISKCON religious leaders. These are individuals who meet Wikpedia's criteria for Wikipedia:Notability (people). Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Pleae note

• Please note that concerning ISKCON religious leaders, I have consulted the Wikipedia Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I have enquired concerning the notability of the members of ISKCON's GBC. I hope that this might start a process to examine sources for ISKCON religious leaders. Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. The page is at: [5]. Ism schism (talk) 07:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Criteria for notable religious leaders in ISKCON

• Question On the official Governing Body Commission website it states that there are "around 48" members. [6] So my question is are all 48 notable due to membership on the GBC of ISKCON? These 48 could be a good starting place for a discussion on a minimum standard for notablilty for religious leaders in ISKCON. I believe there needs to be some criteria set for establishing, "what is a notable ISKCON religious leader?" Any thoughts? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 06:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

These GBC members could be a good starting point. What are your thoughts on addressing some of these? If you want to divide up a to do list, I am all for that. Let me know what you think and I will help construct and reference articles which meet the minimium criteria. I still feel that a minimium criteria is very important. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 02:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussions on notability criteria for ISKCON religious leaders

Discussions on notability criteria for ISKCON religious leaders are located at: Wikipedia talk:Hinduism-related topics notice board, Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion, and Wikipedia talk:Notability (people). Ism schism (talk) 10:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources for ISKCON related articles

• I have added some ISKCON related websites to the reliable sources notice board at [7]. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 17:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Gauranga dasa (RNS)

An editor has nominated Gauranga dasa (RNS), an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gauranga dasa (RNS) and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 20:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

ISKCON work group

• Gouranga, any thoughts on creating an ISKCON work group for biographies and ISKCON related articles? An example is, Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Unitarian Universalism work group. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The discussion is located at, ISKCON work group or subproject. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

11 successor gurus

Please, why can't I make a mere section for the 11 successor gurus on the List of ISKCON members and patrons page? I feel it is an important but confusing (and tragic) part of the history of ISKCON that couldn't possibly hurt to document. I won't delete them from the other list, I'll just mark them out separately with a special table that will show when they were initiated and what their current status is now. Ys, David G Brault (talk) 00:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC).