Frikandelbroodje42

Hello, Frikandelbroodje42, and Welcome to Wikipedia!

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Titles for Dutch ministers

Dear user. I noticed you have been adding the title "Her/His Excellency" to infoboxes of Dutch cabinet members. Could you please provide a source that this is an official title (not just a polite way to address a cabinet member) to justify its inclusion in the infobox? I laid out my argument here earlier about the lack of sourcing for including this title. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 16:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi Tristan, thank you for being so attentive on proper citation. I am not sure there exist an official law or rule that explicately states the title is legally attached to the office of minister or state secretary. However, as far as I can find it is the de facto standard for formally addressing a cabinet member. While with the informal nature of modern Dutch politics the title is rarely used to address someone verbally, it is still very much used in official correspondence. According to the Taalunie [1] (who you also mentioned in your argument), it is a rule for addressing a cabinet member. The defence minister in 2005 wanted to reintroduce its use as a verbal address. The rest of the cabinet found this too formal/elitist for modern day debates.

I agree that looking at it from a purely legal point of view it is a bit of a grey area. This is also because we must distinguish between a real title (like duke or Sir/Dame) and a honorific style, which is what 'Her/His Excellency' really is. While real titles are legal ranks that come with a legal form of address, honorific styles are usually more seen as unwritten rules that were developed in the course of history. This is also the case for the style 'The Right Honourable' in the UK.

I would say it is correct (or at least not incorrect) to display the title at the top of the infobox, because 1) it is the de facto title that is used for the people is these positions in formal documents, 2) the Taalunie states that people in office have a claim to the title, 3) the same is done on pages about British politicians with the title 'The Right Honourable', and 4) it implies to readers that the person is an important statesperson and not just any regular politician. This latter being the reason that I added the titles to the articles.

The rules for using the the title were already correctly listed on the article about the Excellency title (to which the infoboxes all link). To properly cite it, I added a reference to the Taalunie article. I hope you agree this is the best way to cite it, as including a citation on every page the title is used is unfeasible. If you disagree with my reasoning, please let me know below. Groetjes, Frikandelbroodje42 (talk) 20:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Dear user. Thank you for your response. I am not sure if there is more of a legal basis for the honorific prefix for British politicians, but I am not seeing any prefixes in infoboxes for American or French cabinet members. A major issue I do have with the taalunie article is that it similarly lists honorific titles for civil servants (De hoogedelgestrenge) and attorneys (De weledelgestrenge). Those might be used in a letter, but I do not believe it is practice on Wikipedia to add prefixes depending on the subject's occupation. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 20:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Dear Tristan, you make an excellent point on consistency there. While I would say we could draw a line between an occupation and a senior political office, I do agree that the absence of the title on other articles is an issue. After some looking around, I would say that the majority of pages on political leaders do not use it, even though the rules are similar. I do see that comparable but different titles, like 'The Right Honourable' and the Spanish 'The Most Excellent', are more consistently used.

I think consistency on Wikipedia is very important. I started added the title to the politicians, because pages on other Dutch ministers were already using it. Since the 'Your Excellency' title is also a general style used for senior politicians and foreign dignitaries and the majority of articles choose not to use it, I think it would be indeed be best to conform with the style used by other editors and thus remove the title from the infoboxes of all Dutch politicians. This, not because it is incorrect or improperly sourced, but because it introduces inconsistency with the rest of the English Wikipedia. - Frikandelbroodje42 (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. It might be good to have a broader discussion on the inclusion of these titles for Dutch politicians to prevent inconsistency indeed. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)