Daceyvillain

Eastern Suburbs

I noticed that after losing the debate here, the anonymous IP forked the Eastern Suburbs page at Wikivoyage to create a separate "South Eastern Suburbs" page

I left a note about it here https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:Sydney/Eastern_suburbs Daceyvillain (talk) 04:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. it's just laughable by the anon IP. Wikivoyage is a travel guide, how many tourists know of "South Eastern Sydney". The 3 restaurants listed out of probably 100s in the Eastern suburbs is laughable, probably his favourite restaurants. LibStar (talk) 04:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Haha I hadn't noticed that! I will have to check out Pizzavelly in Clovelly because of the funny name. Daceyvillain (talk) 05:04, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Didn't put the suburb for last 2 restaurants. We can reasonably be sure the anon IP lives in Clovelly, and thinks it's definitely part of the SE Sydney! LibStar (talk) 05:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Completely bizarre given how far north Clovelly is...

There is some more discussion here https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:Sydney/South-Eastern_Suburbs. In principle, @SHB2000 says that they agree with merging the pages back together. Daceyvillain (talk) 06:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

We can probably be sure the IP isn't from the Eastern Suburbs given their other nonsensical proposals on voy:Talk:Sydney. --SHB2000 (talk) 06:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I have merged the South Eastern Suburbs content back into the Eastern Suburbs page. Could you take a look, and then delete the South Eastern Suburbs page?

https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Sydney/Eastern_suburbs

https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Sydney/South-Eastern_Suburbs. Daceyvillain (talk) 22:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@Daceyvillain , would a redirect work? https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Deletion_policy#Deleting_vs._redirecting LibStar (talk) 23:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Ahh good idea, done

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Sydney/South-Eastern_Suburbs&redirect=no Daceyvillain (talk) 23:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Sigh, just discovered that anon did the same thing on wikitravel

https://wikitravel.org/en/Sydney/South-Eastern_Suburbs Daceyvillain (talk) 23:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

He doesn't give up does he!? LibStar (talk) 23:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I have fixed Wikitravel to be like Wikivoyage, with a single page and a redirect Daceyvillain (talk) 00:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I think the same person is also spamming Quora

https://www.quora.com/profile/Sydneysider2000

... as they are posting the same map and they started pushing the concept on June 20 on Quora, which lines up with the other dates Daceyvillain (talk) 00:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I think Mapper2000 and Electro333 are the same person as Traveller2000 (Wikitravel) and Voyage2023 (Wikivoyage).

They have been creating fake maps at wikidata, starting around April 2023, when it became clear that no government/official maps supported the concept of the "South Eastern Suburbs" ...

e.g.

From Electro333:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/File:Sydney_Inner_City_%26_Eastern_Suburbs_Regions.jpg

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/File:Eastern_Sydney_Districts_and_Suburbs_Map.png

From Mapper2000:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Greater_Sydney_Regions_and_Suburbs.jpg

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Greater_Sydney_Regions_and_Suburbs_with_Description,_Terrain_and_Colour.png Daceyvillain (talk) 04:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

They won't stop with their obsession! LibStar (talk) 04:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Re: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems/Archive_106#Mapper2000_using_Commons_as_a_platform_to_disrupt_Wikivoyage

("Mapper2000 using Commons as a platform to disrupt Wikivoyage")

In particular, I think these are all the same person

Wikipedia anon IP (203.49.228.129, etc.) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1124

Mapper2000 (Commons)

Electro333 (Commons)

Voyage2023 (Wikivoyage)

Traveller2000 (Wikitravel)

... and there may be other accounts

All of these accounts seem to exist solely to push the original research concept of the "South Eastern Suburbs" of Sydney

I left comments on the Talk pages of some of those fake maps, e.g. here

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Eastern_Sydney_Districts_and_Suburbs_Map.png

cc @Chris.sherlock2

cc @Ikan Kekek

cc @Ypsilon

cc @Ibaman

cc @SHB2000 Daceyvillain (talk) 04:32, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Eh, not surprised, and would be happy to request a x-wiki CU investigation on Meta. Though whatever happens on Wikitravel is irrelevant because a) it's not a WMF project; b) that site is a museum piece that deserves to die. --SHB2000 (talk) 07:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

FYI (for LibStar), more discussion here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Daceyvillain Daceyvillain (talk) 03:31, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Re: CU, I posted some info at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Daceyvillain which ties all the accounts and IPs together Daceyvillain (talk) 22:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Chris.sherlock2 at Commons says to request a Meta CU. Can I do that myself? (not familiar with this process) Daceyvillain (talk) 02:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

You could try requesting on m:SRCU. I won't do so myself given that I don't want to be dealing with two different wikidramas at the same time (the other is with Kallerna on Commons). --SHB2000 (talk) 09:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Daceyvillain (talk) 09:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

If they do so on Wikitravel, let it be. See voy:en:Wikivoyage:Wikivoyage and Wikitravel for why. --SHB2000 (talk) 07:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Ahh I was not aware of the history, thanks! Daceyvillain (talk) 03:31, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@Daceyvillain could you please take this discussion elsewhere like your talk page? Thanks LibStar (talk) 09:23, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Done, apologies, I didn’t expect this rabbit hole to be so deep Daceyvillain (talk) 09:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

hi @Daceyvillain, hope you're well. stumbled upon this discussion via reddit. the user is also promoting their fake maps there as Aussie3210.

i work with geographical data all the time. it's hard enough 'doing geography' when everyone involved has clear and good intentions and try to be consistent. stuff like this really peeves me because it'll end up referenced elsewhere, or even published or referenced in something with on-the-ground impacts. i can't tell you how many times i've had to reverse engineer a boundary from some report or website that is based on nothing but the author's feelings.

i'm new to wikipedia and its affiliates (i note your discussions over on commons...) so not sure how i can assist but wanted to comment and let you know i'm on the same page and happy to help. Jrowls (talk) 02:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

They seem completely mad... they have different accounts (often several different accounts) on Wikipedia, Wiki Commons, Wikivoyage, Wikitravel, Reddit, Quora, and elsewhere, all made just to repost their fake maps, despite them being well aware that their maps are wrong and are not supported by gov sources or by commercial sources

I am so confused by their motivation. Are they are a real estate agent fighting for territory? Or someone who paid a premium for a house on the boundary of Bronte and Clovelly? Or just a nutter?

More discussion here:

https://wikitravel.org/en/User_talk:Adzas#Wikipedia_Editor_Daceyvillain_Vandalism

https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:Sydney/Eastern_suburbs#Merge_%22South_Eastern_Suburbs%22_content_back_into_the_Eastern_Suburbs_page

They even made a petition to Ron Hoenig on Change-org to create a "South-Eastern Suburbs Council"... they are just bonkers... Daceyvillain (talk) 05:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

They are bonkers, I still think they're from Clovelly as they listed "favourite" SE restaurants only in Clovelly and forgot to add suburb name. Possibly works at Good Guys Moore Park? LibStar (talk) 05:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

One of their IPs (their work IP?) was registered to Good Guys Moore Park, yep

BTW on Reddit, they are talking to themselves using multiple accounts (just like on here)

These are the same person on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/user/Hefty_Lie_9850/

https://www.reddit.com/user/Aussie3210/

You can see them talking to themselves in the comments here

https://www.reddit.com/r/AussieMaps/comments/18ew1ke/greater_sydney_regions_map/

Aside: on most of these platforms, they also seem to be obsessed with hazel vs green eyes. They get into all sorts of discussions about those specific eye colours. It gives me strange vibes... like Silence of the Lambs vibes... Daceyvillain (talk) 05:16, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Reading all this drama and conspiring is actually hilarious. I was one of the people involved in the South-Eastern Sydney debate earlier this year and stumbled across the Reddit post of 'Eastern Sydney Suburbs Map' which instantly made me think of the Wikipedia debate that happened. Reading through the comments I found one by none other than the famous Wikipedian name 'Daceyvillain' who has appeared to have created an account on Reddit because he didn't like the picture just to bring up the Wikipedia debates on a completely unrelated website calling someone else a nut (lol).

Apparently Daceyvillain has now been scouring the internet publicly claiming to be the eastern suburbs police trying to find any and all traces of any mention of the 'south-east' and concludes that one person must have created maps, accounts, posts, articles, council proposals (lol) similarly to how Daceyvillain claimed that one person was behind all the accounts defending the south-eastern sydney article (yeah, right...maybe it's the boogey man).

Maybe this article is written by the same person too (gasp);

https://www.christopher-james-hall.com/blog/knowing-sydney-what-is-not-the-eastern-suburbs

Reading the comments on reddit led me down this rabbit hole of nonsense that has continued to transpire through the year as obviously Daceyvillain's actions have resulted in a ripple effect in the community with people now wanting the south-east acknowledged. Probably would have been easier to have just kept the original article as not all regions of Sydney are defined by government sources with many being informal (Forest District for instance) rather than taking notice of Daceyvillain whose only desire is to have his neighbourhood called 'the eastern suburbs'. 2405:6E00:2EC:6094:B4A5:9CE4:559B:3C95 (talk) 07:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

And you're too chicken to set up an account. Using multiple IPs all pushing the same agenda. LibStar (talk) 08:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

You were not just one of the people involved - in fact you and your other office and cellular IPs were the only person who was pushing to divide the Eastern Suburbs into subregions.

You are a strange person who is constantly replying to yourself using different IPs and different account names. Daceyvillain (talk) 08:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

guess who has now deleted their reddit account! ha.

yes, i also saw the hazel eyes discussion. interestingly, from a quick look at the discourse in those subreddits, our hero seems to be virulently in the wrong on that matter as well.

as an aside, the replies below are getting into ridiculous territory lol. Jrowls (talk) 09:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Re: the only person in the universe obsessed with hazel eyes and the eastern suburbs, see also (for example)

Sydneysider2000

https://www.quora.com/profile/Sydneysider2000/answers

and

MJ

https://www.quora.com/profile/MJ-4000/questions

These are the same person - one account for posting fake questions and another account for posting fake answers Daceyvillain (talk) 09:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

... and here they are on Pinterest doing the same thing (posting only about hazel eyes and the eastern suburbs)

https://www.pinterest.com.au/Venom3201/ Daceyvillain (talk) 10:41, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

... and on Property Chat doing the same thing ...

https://www.propertychat.com.au/community/threads/sydney-eastern-suburbs-vs-melbourne-inner-north.72169/ Daceyvillain (talk) 10:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

and posting that map again. It's definitely the same person LibStar (talk) 11:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

They have deleted all of their Reddit posts (from those 2 accounts mentioned above), but now they are targeting this page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_population_demographics_of_New_South_Wales_by_local_government_area Daceyvillain (talk) 13:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

They have now posted a single government map as a source, but it is a map that we already discussed 6 months ago and it defines the area in question as the Eastern Suburbs and not as the South Eastern Suburbs

See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Eastern_Sydney_Districts_and_Suburbs_Map.png Daceyvillain (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Update: I don't think they deleted their Reddit account, I think they actually blocked you (and blocked me) so that their Reddit posts appear to be deleted. Because they are that kind of coward... but you can still see the posts if you logout. Daceyvillain (talk) 15:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

They have actually deleted their original posts now, but reposted here

https://www.reddit.com/user/Aussie3210/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SydneyMaps/comments/18u7ruc/eastern_sydney_suburbs_districts_map/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SydneyMaps/comments/18u7rbi/central_sydney_map/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SydneyMaps/comments/18u7qb8/sydney_eastern_suburbs_map/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SydneyMaps/comments/18u7pql/greater_sydney_regions_map/ Daceyvillain (talk) 05:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Haha, they also made their own subreddit so they could make themselves a moderator ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/SydneyMaps/ Daceyvillain (talk) 05:28, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

good lord. that's some good continuing sleuth work, dacey. i'm very tempted to make some of my own maps and post them in their little subreddit. Jrowls (talk) 10:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

They would just delete your post and ban you. Maybe best to avoid their empty subreddit .. but posting elsewhere would be good! Daceyvillain (talk) 10:45, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

• This is not my fight. I have no expertise on Australia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

seems like Mr Good Guys has gone quiet. He'll probably reappear soon under a different IP. LibStar (talk) 03:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I think he is subscribed to our edits, so, I’ll just say “Hi” in advance here Daceyvillain (talk) 10:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

For example see Special:Contributions/2405:6E00:4EE:E575:4E37:3CDF:E74F:EB5E. The anon IP is now just vandalising every edit I make. Daceyvillain (talk) 14:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

E.g. more of anon IP’s time wasting here

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carmine_Coppola&action=history Daceyvillain (talk) 13:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, here is my attempt at a map. The M1 Motorway becomes much easier to cross in Surry Hills, and it is gone/underground by the time Darlinghurst begins, so the boundary there is a bit fuzzy.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_the_Eastern_Suburbs_of_Sydney,_Australia.jpg Daceyvillain (talk) 00:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

i don't mind that boundary, but i think it definitely oversimplifies the 'inner south' question.

if you look at the ABS' SA4 area for eastern sydney... i think you could make arguments for that or your map or anything in between.

what did you use from nationalmap, out of curiosity? Jrowls (talk) 22:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I used their Geoscience Australia base map and their suburb boundary overlay. The M1 / Eastern Distributor seems like a pretty clear modern day boundary, as it is mostly hard and unpleasant to cross, especially to walk across. But some definitions would also include old suburbs like Mascot, Eastlakes, Rosebery, etc, in the Eastern Suburbs, as they were built at same time as the rest, and built before the M1 motorway was built and more clearly divided everything. Should I add more fuzzy boundaries? I don’t think we will ever get a perfect map, but I could tweak this one Daceyvillain (talk) 22:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jrowls Daceyvillain does not approve of the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) definition of Sydney's Eastern Suburbs and would never make a map reflecting their definition as the ABS like all official government definitions of Sydney's Eastern Suburbs only defines it as being comprised of the LGAs of Woollahra, Waverley and Randwick Council.

Government definitions of Sydney's Eastern Suburbs have never nor will ever officially include Bayside Council nor did they ever include the former area of City of Botany Bay. City of Botany Bay was often described as being part of 'South Sydney' or 'South-Eastern Sydney' and the official Bayside website describes itself as covering Sydney's Southern Suburbs and South-Eastern Suburbs (https://www.bayside.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-08/Information%20Guide%20Bayside%20Council.pdf). Just whatever you do, don't mention the term 'south-east' to Daceyvillain they become manic when they hear that hyphenation.

This all means that their cherished suburb of Daceyville is never actually included in official government definition of the Eastern Suburbs which makes Daceyvillain frantic and that is their sole purpose, to justify that Daceyville is part of the Eastern Suburbs which is why Daceyvillain's made the map. 2405:6E00:4EE:E575:4E37:3CDF:E74F:EB5E (talk) 15:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jrowls, for context, the anon IP has previously not acknowledged any government maps (despite links to government maps being provided to them hundreds of times). The anon IP was instead trying to define the Eastern Suburbs as a very small area ending around Bondi Junction, but they couldn't provide any references to support their original research.

Maps provided by government typically continue all the way south to La Perouse, but they use various/onconsistent western boundaries. That is why I drew a fuzzy western border on the map above (happy to include more fuzzy lines...).

Here are a few examples of government maps with different western boundaries:

https://www.seslhd.health.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/groups/PICH/Priority%20Populations/Eastern%20Suburbs_SESLHD_2016%20Census.pdf (includes Mascot / Rosebery)

https://transportnsw.info/document/4248/state_transit_eastern_suburbs_network_map.pdf (includes Mascot / Rosebery / Alexandria / Redfern)

But I'm sure that the anon IP will just ignore these maps, as they have been ignoring them for the last year or more...

Actually, this is probably the first time that the anon IP has even acknowledged the ABS map, because they were so obsessed with the idea that the Eastern Suburbs should end at Bondi Junction, but the ABS map shows the Eastern Suburbs continuing south to La Perouse. In particular, the anon IP seemed to refuse to admit Randwick Council into their personal definition of the Eastern Suburbs... Daceyvillain (talk) 21:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

That ridiculous source you keep posting of SESLHD from 2016 that puts Botany Bay into the Eastern Suburbs is also highlighting Sydney CBD and The Rocks in the Eastern Suburbs. It is not accurate, recent nor valid. Find a single map from 2017 until now that puts Bayside Council or any part of it in the Eastern Suburbs. I promise you won't find a single one as every government source only acknowledges Sydney's Eastern Suburbs to be comprised of Woollahra, Waverley and Randwick Council, nothing more and nothing less. This is not my opinion, this is a fact.

In actuality to your surprise I agree with your map of the Eastern Suburbs ending at Southern Cross Drive but using that as a boundary is purely POV and opinion based as if we're talking straight facts, government sources never use Southern Cross Drive as the official boundary of the eastern suburbs whether you or I like it or not, instead it uses the Eastern Distributor, part of Gardeners Road and Bunnerong Road.

The government considers Bayside Council a southern council overall and does not include any of it in the eastern suburbs so if we're taking POV and opinion out of this debate and just using government sources (which is what we're supposed to do on Wikipedia) then modern government maps/sources is what we should be basing the information off otherwise we're just being hypocrites now aren't we? 2405:6E00:4EE:E575:4E37:3CDF:E74F:EB5E (talk) 15:14, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

If you agree with me that is great.

So you will stop trolling and vandalising, then?

Re: maps

You have spent over a year ignoring links to maps, but here are some more links for fun...

2023, map on page 19:

https://education.nsw.gov.au/content/dam/main-education/going-to-a-public-school/Eastern_Suburbs_Consultation_Report.pdf

2020:

https://www.guild.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/87818/District-8_Sydney-and-Eastern-Suburbs.pdf

2018, map on page 4:

https://www.seslhd.health.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/groups/Mental_Health/KBIM/ESMHS%20Guide%20to%20Low%20Cost%20Foods%20%20(Endorsed%20by%20DDDCC%20October%202018).pdf

2018, map on page 2:

https://www.lawsociety.com.au/sites/default/files/2018-04/063115.pdf

And here is a map from 1876 showing dense development in Randwick, Coogee, Maroubra, etc. but showing a whole lot of nothing in Rose Bay, Bellevue Hill, Bondi Beach, etc.

https://collection.sl.nsw.gov.au/record/74VvkjMDAXgM Daceyvillain (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Mr Good Guys is also too cowardly to create an account, switching IPs to give the appearance of multiple people working on the same agenda. LibStar (talk) 22:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Here's another IP for Mr. Good Guys

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2405:6E00:2EC:5267:B4E0:EE43:B7F7:6F9C Daceyvillain (talk) 01:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)